Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rules

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Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rules

Post by Lord hajjij »

Feel free to add some of yours! It feels good to vent!

I've done a lot of looking at scroll here and below are my main gripes with our army in Age of Sigmar. As of now, looks like I'll probably be messing around playing the Undead for awhile until we get some new releases for Aelfs, and then I'll re-evaluate. Also, luckily I'll be able to play at least some 8th too.

The Good:

There are great things, but that's for another thread.

The Bad and Ugly:

1. You can see what they TRIED to do with the army's flavor - but they failed. Most of our abilities are centered around re-rolls, and not interesting things like we got with "The Price of Failure" & "Ravagers and Slavers". These interesting abilities are few and far between and are in my opinion poorly implemented and/or worthless. "Sow Terror and Confusion", for example, is awesome but very unlikely to come into play because there are so many ways to prevent or minimize Battleshock, and it only has a 1 in 6 chance to actually do anything. (and even then a pretty good chance at doing nothing against many armies - Bravery 10 all around with no side effects anyone?)

"Trechery and Power" could have been amazing especially in the Assassinate Sudden Death scenario, but the words "your general is slain" makes it pretty much worthless 90% of the time.

Having SOME unique and cool ability on our "unique" units like Beastmaster on Manticore, Cold One Knights, and Scourgerunners would have been nice. Any other race's ridden monster warscrolls make our Beastmaster look like it was thrown together in literally 2 minutes, when it could have been something to build a "beast" army around.

Witch Elves and Warlocks have no poison rules, Shades are super generic, and with Assassins, while they are awesome, I still feel cheated with their rules since you can't customize the poisons at all - it's just "does D3 damage instead of 1" - sorry but that's incredibly lame. Effective? Sure. But crap all the same in my opinion.

All in all, EPIC FAIL.

---

2. Our magic sucks donkey ****. Beyond the cool ability to shank someone to get extra power, it's the worst of all factions. The best spell is easily Doombolt, and then Word Of Pain isn't awful. Besides Word of Pain, we have no ability to manipulate the opponent, such as reducing Bravery or Movement. A spell like "Shroud of Dispair - Target unit has -1 to Bravery and cannot be the subject of Command Abilities until your next hero phase" would have been amazing and fluffy. Even Chillwind adding something like "for each Mortal Wound caused, reduced the unit's movement by 1" would have made that spell situational yet good. Instead, we only have spells that just have various ways of dealing Mortal Wounds. To add insult to injury, Morathi is UTTER GARBAGE.

COMPLETE and UTTER FAIL.

---

3. We are the worst at shooting of all the Aelfs. "Highborn" shooty units dominate ours in almost every comparable sense. Shadow Warriors > Shades, Reavers > Dark Riders, Repeater > Reaper. I'll give Archers and Darkshards a wash, but Glade Guard are incredible. We are clearly the worst of the Aelfs when it comes to shooting, and don't make it up for it by being the "best in combat" or even the fastest. In fact, we're the slowest! We have only a few rules that affect shooting at all.

DISAPPOINTING

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4. Rend stat is too rare in this army, and just thrown around like candy in many of the other armies. Go look at Beastmen for example. We don't make up for that weakness with better To Hit either. Have fun killing things that have 3+ or 4+ re-rollable saves. Granted, it feels weird complaining about Executioners since they're one of our best units, but 0 rend on those is weird, as is 0 rend on Cold One Knights.

MAYBE I'M BEING NITPICKY BUT COME ON
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Diobarach »

I haven't actually played yet, since no one I know locally is even remotely interested in playing (not even just to try it). But looking at our rules and some of the others it does seem a bit like we didn't do so hot. Executioners seem improved and the blood cult host might be serviceable but overall the rules feel lacklustre to me. I have to agree that it seems like these rules were slapped together without much thought.

Some armies seem to have rules that are incredibly strong (not looking at you Mr. LoC), I guess GW really struggles to make a balanced product and has given up on the notion for fantasy. The onus appears to have been shifted to its customers/players to do that leg work or maybe they just think people aren't interested in balance/fairness and just wanted to groom their facial hair/talk to their models....
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Vulcan »

To be frank, I see one - and ONLY one - use for this game:

Low-cost entry drug to get newbies started before introducing them to the REAL game of Warhammer.

It's not even good as a 'beer and pretzels' game. By the time an experienced wargamer has had enough beer to make AoS enjoyable, they've had enough beer to make a root canal enjoyable.

Yeah, I compared it to a root canal. Because in my opinion, it's about as much fun. Reading the rules is actively painful for me. So much uniqueness lost, rendered down to a universal '4+, 4+, 4+.' Snore...
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Barking Agatha »

<sigh...>

Just try it, you'll be surprised. It looks simple, and it can be, but for someone used to tactics and finding synergies there is a wealth of complexity. Re-rolling saves is huge. Re-rolling wounds is even more huge. Extra attacks and extra damage are huge.

It really makes you think about where to fight, where to retreat, where to charge, where to let yourself be charged, where to support your troops with a hero. You win by out-thinking your opponent during the game, not because you brought the stronger army list. It's the best that Warhammer has ever been.

I tend to think that we're all incredibly clever and open-minded people, and what I'm seeing is such a knee-jerk and unthinking reaction that I find it sad. Like a bunch of old colonels angry and frustrated that computers exist because they didn't have them back in '34, and what is this 'e-mail' business? What's wrong with plain old mail? It's an outrage! For what it's worth, I've played three games so far, against Ogres, Vampire Counts, and Dwarfs, and I've *slaughtered* them all so far, because Exiles rule and because they're still in the old Warhammer mentality and I've played historical games, which this new Warhammer resembles. It's more 'realistic' and tactics count more.

That's the last I'll say about it because I can see that some of you have already dismissed AoS out of hand and reason will not sway you. I hope you get over it and try it. A few games in and you'll wonder what you were so negative about. :)
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Lord hajjij »

I never said I didn't think AoS was good or bad. I'm talking specifically about the "Exiles" aka Dark Elf warscrolls.
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Daeron »

I haven't had the time to theory craft the rest yet, but I think some notes are in order here:

Lord hajjij wrote:Shadow Warriors > Shades, Reavers > Dark Riders, Repeater > Reaper.


- The difference between the Shadow Warriors and Shades is tiny. Barely worth mentioning. This is assuming the Shadow Warriors get their cover bonus. Of course, they do become better with Alith Anar, but this is a boost more to Alith Anar than the unit itself.
- The benefit of the Reavers over the Dark Riders comes down to the rule that lets them shoot again (and the additional move?!). This is quite incredible, that such a strong contrast in rules is made. We do have a better save which can not be ignored but anyhow. At the base the dark riders are better, but the high elf ice cube syndrome conquered.
- Reapers beat Repeaters, actually. The Repeaters have the single bolt option, but it's worthless.

This is the damage chart of their single bolt, before saves:
Image

This is the damage chart of their volley shot:
Image

This is the damage chart of our volley shot:
Image

So unless you're adding in synergy from another source, we win that comparison.
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Barking Agatha »

Lord hajjij wrote:I never said I didn't think AoS was good or bad. I'm talking specifically about the "Exiles" aka Dark Elf warscrolls.


Not surprisingly, that's what I've been playing and winning with. :)
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Diobarach »

Barking Agatha wrote:
Lord hajjij wrote:I never said I didn't think AoS was good or bad. I'm talking specifically about the "Exiles" aka Dark Elf warscrolls.


Not surprisingly, that's what I've been playing and winning with. :)


That's cool, what lists have you been winning with? I'd love to see them and even what they went up against.
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Lord hajjij »

How is it tiny?

1. SW hit on 3+ in both Shooting and Combat, Shades hit on 4+ in both.
2. SW have a better range.
3. SW have pretty insane synergy with Alith Anar, Shades have NO synergy with anything.
4. I will give you that "A Shadow Moves Unseen" is slightly better than the Shadow Warrior equivalent.
5. Strike Unseen > Blend with Darkness

This thread is not really ALL about the above. What this thread is MAINLY about, is #3, above. "Exiles" have very little in terms of cool rules and cool synergy compared to most every other army. Shades, Assassins, Bleakswords, Darkshards - just to name a few units - all have extremely generic special rules, where even things like F***ING BRETTONIAN ARCHERS have a "unique" rule. SKELTONS have WAY MORE special rules than Bleakswords.

It's a shame. You can tell what this army is SUPPOSED to be about, but it was simply thrown together as an afterthought and barely viable.
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Lord hajjij »

Barking Agatha wrote:
Lord hajjij wrote:I never said I didn't think AoS was good or bad. I'm talking specifically about the "Exiles" aka Dark Elf warscrolls.


Not surprisingly, that's what I've been playing and winning with. :)


I could win every single game and have a problem with how the army plays.

Here is a list of units that have NO synergy with ANYTHING else in the army, and/or no interesting effects at all:

Cold One Knights
Cold One Chariots
Dreadspears
Bleakswords
Darkshards
Black Guard
Shades
RBT
Scourgerunner Chariots
War Hydra
Doomfire Warlocks
Shadowblade
Assassins
Morathi

Now go look at some of the other armies.
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Daeron »

Lord Hajjij! If there be doubts in your mind about my funded statements, then provide the proof I shall! Freed from doubt thy mind shall be! ... After tea-time. :P

I'll deliver the stats tomorrow, but keep in mind they can fire only once, where Shades can fire twice. The re-roll makes up for it, if they get it. But what actually tips the balance in their favour is the upgrade to a champ that gives them a mild increase. And this is comparing 5 to 5 models (max benefit for them). The synergy with Alith Anar is immense, without a doubt. But, as I stated, that has more to do with Alith Anar than the actual Shadow Warriors. It could just as well have been a special rule on the character.

I'd love to dive into a more detailed discussion on this with you. I take an odd joy out of that... But I'll need to ask time. It's easy to list 10 units and say they are crap for not having enough stats this or that. It's a lot harder to gather the facts and model that, giving proof to either a confirmation or counter argument.
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Rork »

Just don't expect this to change. All this stuff is a pat on the head while GW brings in their all new armies they want people to buy.

Unless you play MarinesStormlords or Chaos Space Marines Slaves to Darkness ;) .
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Lord hajjij »

Sorry Daeron, I would never hope to refute your statistical posts. I find them great - and I am sorry I didn't mention your RBT comparison specifically because it was ace. Thank you.
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

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r530 wrote:That's cool, what lists have you been winning with? I'd love to see them and even what they went up against.


You can see them here. I'm quite proud of them! viewtopic.php?f=9&t=75100

Let's see. Against Ogres (Ogors) I took Boanne (counting as a Dreadlord on Cold One, but with 4 cold one attacks, see here: viewtopic.php?f=165&t=76901), Aoifanne, Mhoiranne, the Keening Bo's, the Cross-bo's, Princess, Aunt Maddie, the Bo' locks, and 3 Reaper Bolt Throwers (I have two I haven't put up yet). He had a Tyrant, a Butcher, 9 Ogres, 9 Leadbelchers, 6 Maneaters, 2 sabretusks, 2 Mournfang Cavalry guys, an Ironblaster and a Thundertusk. So, about 53 models to his 32. His Sudden Victory condition was 'Endure'. Didn't make it :)

The Undead had a Vampire, a Necromancer, a Terrorgheist, 3 Vargheists, 4 Spirit Hosts, a Banshee, 30 zombies, 30 skellingtons, 20 ghouls, and 5 Hexwraiths. I used the same as above plus the Bo Guard, the Head-chop bo's, and the Five Shades of Bo. Basically, everything I have.

And the dwarfs (duarrir?) were, I *think*, 10 Irondrakes, a Gyrocopter, a Runelord, some Hammerers, two Organ Guns, a Cannon, and some Ironbreakers. I've forgotten exactly how many they were, but I took everything again.

I'm well aware that my 'list' could be much better. But hey, I'm winning with it :)
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Diobarach »

Barking Agatha wrote:
r530 wrote:That's cool, what lists have you been winning with? I'd love to see them and even what they went up against.


You can see them here. I'm quite proud of them! http://www.druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=75100

Let's see. Against Ogres (Ogors) I took Boanne (counting as a Dreadlord on Cold One, but with 4 cold one attacks, see here: http://www.druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic ... 65&t=76901), Aoifanne, Mhoiranne, the Keening Bo's, the Cross-bo's, Princess, Aunt Maddie, the Bo' locks, and 3 Reaper Bolt Throwers (I have two I haven't put up yet). He had a Tyrant, a Butcher, 9 Ogres, 9 Leadbelchers, 6 Maneaters, 2 sabretusks, 2 Mournfang Cavalry guys, an Ironblaster and a Thundertusk. So, about 53 models to his 32. His Sudden Victory condition was 'Endure'. Didn't make it :)

The Undead had a Vampire, a Necromancer, a Terrorgheist, 3 Vargheists, 4 Spirit Hosts, a Banshee, 30 zombies, 30 skellingtons, 20 ghouls, and 5 Hexwraiths. I used the same as above plus the Bo Guard, the Head-chop bo's, and the Five Shades of Bo. Basically, everything I have.

And the dwarfs (duarrir?) were, I *think*, 10 Irondrakes, a Gyrocopter, a Runelord, some Hammerers, two Organ Guns, a Cannon, and some Ironbreakers. I've forgotten exactly how many they were, but I took everything again.

I'm well aware that my 'list' could be much better. But hey, I'm winning with it :)


Your army looks fantastic, nice to see you winning with it too. Seems like your opponents had pretty interesting lists too. Was there much pre-game coordination or was it just show up and play? In previous editions, you could say 2000 or 2500 point battle and sort of take it from there, in AoS that doesn't seem so straightforward other than to show up and sort of start coordinating from there.
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Barking Agatha »

r530 wrote:Your army looks fantastic, nice to see you winning with it too. Seems like your opponents had pretty interesting lists too. Was there much pre-game coordination or was it just show up and play? In previous editions, you could say 2000 or 2500 point battle and sort of take it from there, in AoS that doesn't seem so straightforward other than to show up and sort of start coordinating from there.


Thanks! It was, 'Hey, new rules are up. Want to try it?' 'Sure. See you tomorrow at four?' 'Four it is.'

Then we just pulled out models and started playing :)
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Haagrum »

Barking Agatha wrote:
r530 wrote:Your army looks fantastic, nice to see you winning with it too. Seems like your opponents had pretty interesting lists too. Was there much pre-game coordination or was it just show up and play? In previous editions, you could say 2000 or 2500 point battle and sort of take it from there, in AoS that doesn't seem so straightforward other than to show up and sort of start coordinating from there.


Thanks! It was, 'Hey, new rules are up. Want to try it?' 'Sure. See you tomorrow at four?' 'Four it is.'

Then we just pulled out models and started playing :)


This. So much this.

I will judge AoS after I've had a chance to play it. That will happen this Thursday evening. Until then, I'll withhold judgement and try to come up with a fun, thematic list. I think it makes perfect sense that the Exiles don't have a lot of unit synergy... because frankly, none of them trust each other and only respect power. Perhaps the High Elf Ice Cube Syndrome has been resurrected in all its glory, perhaps not. From a quick skim, it looks to me as though most of the units that got a big rules boost were somewhat lacklustre before. I'll find out the empirical way, rather than by relying on the edicts of Sig-math's Hammer.

The rules for AoS, as they are currently written, require a degree of "not being That Guy" in order to have fun. They are a radical departure from Warhammer as we knew it. This is not necessarily a bad thing. I would prefer to play a game that I have no incentive to take too seriously and can enjoy playing with a fluff list, since it means other like-minded people are free to do so as well. If I'm outnumbered, fine - it's not as though winning every game I play is the reason why I enjoy playing toy soldier-based board games.
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Lord hajjij »

I'll be playing a bunch of AoS this weekend, and I'm excited for the game itself. Like, big time excited. However, that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about how crappy our "thrown together" rules are. It would be an easier pill to swallow if other armies were similar, but for example High Elves are VERY well done and cool, and have a bunch of synergies between units and unique & effective rules.

GW dropped the ball with this army, even if it is just a "stop gap". I can just think up some better stuff in 5 minutes.

Scourgerunner Chariots - ball dropped. One crappy rule that barely has any effect. Should have been a true monster hunting machine, with reliable rules like "if Ravager Harpoon hits a monster damage is 2d3" and additionally "if a monster takes a wound from the ravager harpoon it has to subtract 1 from to hit rolls in the next combat round" or something like that.

Darkshards - decent, but could have been better and had a distinct rule. Maybe a rule like: "Empty the clip - once per game Darkshards may shoot all the bolts from their magazine. If they do this, they shoot 6 times instead of 2 but cannot shoot in their next shooting phase as they reload."

Beastmaster on Manticore - Utter crap. Not only is there a typo on the scroll so it technically can't even fly, but it's otherwise pretty much completely useless. Even something like "Perfect Specimen - Beastmasters save their best monsters for themselves. After deployment, pick this model or another monster in your army. That unit always fights as if it had 0 wounds taken."

Dreadlord - should have some kind of option to take a RxB and increase the viability of shooting. Our shooting is pitiful compared to High and Wood elves.

Magic - One of my biggest gripes. Our magic is S**T. Give us some kind of augment type spell like "Power of Darkness - pick an exiles unit within x", that unit has +1 to wound in combat".

Dreadlord on Cold One - Bladed Barding is just meh. How about making the Hydra Blade actually unique and make this version of the Dreadlord super killy? How about "At the beginning of each combat, roll 2 dice - if you roll over your Bravery, the Hydra blade is -1 to hit but if it hits, it does a Mortal Wound"

Assassins - how hard would it have been to give us a choice of 1 of 2 poisons? Keep the current, and add one like "Manbane - even a scratch from manbane will kill. If you hit and wound with your daggers coated with manbane, it does a mortal wound instead of a normal wound". Also, the fact that assassins don't have a -1 to be hit in close combat is ridiculous.

Shades - how about something cool like "Shades are the masters of the RxB and use them in close range with great skill. While shooting at a unit closer than 3", the shades get and additional attack and can add 1 to the wound rolls with their RxB."

I came up with that just skimming down our God-awful warscrolls.
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Vulcrist »

Lord hajjij wrote:Here is a list of units that have NO synergy with ANYTHING else in the army, and/or no interesting effects at all:


Actually, your claim is somewhat wrong.

Cold One Knights
Cold One Chariots


Incorrect. Dread Lord on Cold one has synergy specifically with these units (Single-minded Hunting Beasts), as well as with any Exiles Heroes when they have a standard bearer present.
They also have their Lance Charge and Darkshields for the Knights, and the Scythed Runners for the chariot.

Hardly "no interesting effects at all".

Dreadspears
Bleakswords
Darkshards


Again, incorrect. These units all have synergy with Exiles Heroes when they have a standard bearer present.
Dreadspears have Darkshields, City Guard and Formidable Bastion.
Bleakswords have Darkshields, and Quicksilver Strike.
Darkshards have Darkshields, and Storm of Iron-Tipped Bolts.

Hardly "no interesting effects at all".

Black Guard


More incorrect. These units have synergy with Malekith (The Witch King's Retinue) and Exiles Heroes when they have a standard bearer present.
In addition, they have their Eternal Hatred, which is hardly "not interesting".

Shades
RBT
Scourgerunner Chariots
War Hydra
Doomfire Warlocks
Shadowblade
Assassins
Morathi


Correct. They do not have much synergy, but they don't need it. And they are loaded with "interesting effects".

While your complaints are your opinions, others do not share them and can see that our druchii are effective and playable as ever, in the context of the new system.
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Lord hajjij »

Incorrect. Dread Lord on Cold one has synergy specifically with these units (Single-minded Hunting Beasts), as well as with any Exiles Heroes when they have a standard bearer present.
They also have their Lance Charge and Darkshields for the Knights, and the Scythed Runners for the chariot.

Hardly "no interesting effects at all".


The synergy with Standard Bearers is quite a reach.

I think you're somewhat missing the point here, so apologies if I don't get my point across.

Cold One Knights are a pretty good example. In 8th, they had a boat load of special rules, and were also quite hitty even after the charge because of their mounts. As such, they were a "special" cavalry unit. They had a higher WS, higher Str, higher Ini, higher Ld, and the fluff went on and on about how they were among the most elite fighters the Druchii had. Fast forward to AoS: Fear, Stupidity, Thick-Skinned are gone. Also, while Cold Ones hit and wound more, all mounts basically have 2 attacks now.

So, in essence, they lost all their "flavor" and have become GENERIC CAVARLY except they just move slower.

Why couldn't we have something like:

"Thick Skinned" Cold One Knights wear the best (often enchanted) armor, and due to years of applying Cold One slime, feel no pain. Cold One Knights have a 3+ Save.

"Primal Beasts" - The Cold Ones smell the blood of the enemy from far away and are invigorated by the potential for a meal. The first time this unit completes a charge in the charge phase, the Cold Ones fight with +1 attack and their Rend characteristic is increased to -1 in the next combat phase.

"Battle Masters" - Cold One Knights have sacrificed much of their personal lives in the pursuit of Martial Discipline. In any combat phase, you may choose to Pile in and Attack with Cold One Knights first, even if it is not your turn. If you have multiple units of Cold One Knights, only one can choose to attack first like this.

These are just some random ideas I've come up with in 2 minutes.

Instead, we got "Single Minded Hunting Beasts" (somewhat redundant with Dark Elf Musicians) and "Lance Charge" which is basically a shared rule with many other cavalry types.

More incorrect. These units have synergy with Malekith (The Witch King's Retinue) and Exiles Heroes when they have a standard bearer present.
In addition, they have their Eternal Hatred, which is hardly "not interesting".


EDIT: The Witch King's Retinue is completely redundant with Malekith's Command ability, which you will use every turn.

I believe that any ability that's "re-roll x's to hit/wound" is absolutely "not interesting". It's a generic ability with a cool name. Also, you'll note that basically ANY unit that used to have Hatred has the same rule, and there is NOTHING that separates Hatred from Eternal Hatred. So yeah, another great example of how we got boned by these warscrolls. Hell, even if "Eternal Hatred" was re-roll 1's and 2's, that would satisfy me.
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Daeron »

Performance of Shadow Warriors vs Shades

Shadow Warriors, unit of 5.
Base shooting, wounds before saves
Base shooting, wounds before saves, with champion
Strike Unseen, wounds before saves
Strike Unseen, wounds before saves, with champion <- this is the top pick.

Shadow Warriors, with Alith Anar
Base shooting, wounds before saves
Strike Unseen, wounds before saves

Shades, unit of 5.
Image

Taking a closer look at the 5 Shadow Warriors with a champ:
Image

We have 8% more chance to score below 2 wounds, and slightly more to score above 4. We could note our performance is a bit more dicey but ... I hardly think this is worth making a big argument over. The Shadow Warriors have 2" range over Shades, but once an enemy gets close their shooting goes down.

In Combat, the Shadow warriors fight better in melee than Shades, but their shooting goes down. Combined, this almost balances out.

Shades, shooting and fighting in combat
Image

Shadow Warriors, shooting and fighting in combat:
Image

The funny thing is, it all comes down to the champ. Remove him, and Shades take the upper hand by a small margin.

Special rules

It looks like a lot of our strengths gained from special rules have been incorporated straight into the base stats. If you have any worry on that, let me know what I need to theorycraft.

Now, before I continue on this topic, let me say that there is no problem at all with preferring a lot of special and flavour rules. If that is something you enjoy, then that's an opinion I fully respect. No problem.

Personally, I prefer it the current way where it's directly incorporated: it's simpler. I do like flavour, but I want to experience flavour in the fluff text, the style of the model and how the model/army plays... less so by the specific way the rules are constructed.

The special rules explosion we saw in 8th edition could be attributed to the (rigid) rule engine behind Warhammer and how designers were trying to escape its boundaries. WS, I, and Ld were undervalued while S, T and AS dominated the game. So how can a race, reliant on the weakest stats and low on the best stats become an elite army?
-> Special rules
Back in 6th edition, we didn't have the special rules but similar stats and a similar point value. As a result we were the weakest army in the game, so bad that GW made a (free) revision of our book to bring down the point cost of half our units. It still didn't make us competitive... because it was still -that bad-. Yet Elves were Elves: M5, WS4, S3, T3, Ld8, 6+ AS.

G.W. didn't "fix" the engine by much. 7th saw I increase in value, magic go up, armour go down. We gained special rules and point cost reductions -> boom we were on top.
In 8th they clearly wanted the points to go up. They also kept the same engine for damage, and a single writer was assigned to the Elves. Elves got ASF (re-rolls) like it's a racial attribute and prowess rules to distinguish the flavour of the different Elven races.
While I do think the author succeeded in making us feel different, I didn't feel that 6th failed giving us our unique flavour without special rules.

But now, in 8th, our special rules circumvented the mechanics of the core engine. As a consequence, we also negated a lot of the game mechanics that relied on the core engine. We laughed at the -1 hit modifier by nurgle thanks to re-rolls. I remember people going "Ohh hell they just ate my Executioners!" -> the only unit that didn't benefit from ASF and suddenly we noticed there was a mechanic there.
Miasma lowered initiative? Hah. WS? Hah! Perhaps together, we could be worried but only against an elite force.
If you read all the hate we got from other races on our special rules, it's clear the mechanic wasn't always appreciated, because they lacked tools to fight something that didn't follow the game's engine.

An alternative was to increase the value of WS, I and to lower armour across the board. If they had done that, we could have abandoned most of our special rules and still be as powerful for the same point cost. But the transition would be difficult and throw the entire balance upside down.

Now, with the pre-compiled hit and wound stats for AoS they can alleviate part of that problem. I think that's a win. I don't feel we're lacking character in our scrolls: we're fast, wickedly cruel and have a strange sense of discipline that grants us partial immunity from battle shock due to losses.

High Elves may have more special rules, partly because they are supposed to "feel" more magical. They are the 'glittering host' after all. They need out of the ordinary mechanics. They always have: more magic, more items, more options. They are our superiors in items and magic. This makes sense fluff wise because Dark Elves are not exactly craftsmen whereas High Elves kept the culture of craftsmanship alive. In the fluff we can find a lot of traces to this:
- Malekith's armour is crafted pre sundering by a deserted priest of Vaul named Hotek.
- Hotek is also known to make many magical items for the Druchii during the Sundering, which shakes the confidence of the High Elves: apparently they hadn't counted on Druchii having access to powerful magical items
- Ring of Hotek? Yep.
- Malus Darkblade novels indicate that some of the most powerful items are either of "legend", meaning nobody knows where they came from anymore, or they are crafted by Dwarfs
- Urian Poisonblade's new swords -> makers unclear (think it were Dwarfs) made from warpstone because that's the most powerful/evil metal we have
- Malekith's armour is damaged and repaired during the Sundering by a reincarnation of Vaul (looking like Hotek)
- Malekith's iron circlet -> found in the Chaos Wastes
A few items dark elves make are usually crafted by enchantment or curses using blood magic and sacrifices.

As for the High Elves:
- Tyrion's armour -> Elven craft
- Tyrion's blade -> Elven craft
- Teclis's hat -> Elven craft
- Teclis's staff -> Elven craft
- The blade from what's his name at the Lion Gate -> Elven craft
- Phoenix Guard's fancy weapons and protection -> Elven craft
- And so forth.
The only item that doesn't fit the list is the cloak they made of Dwarven beards.

In terms of magic, High Elves have always had a controlled, but more open and diverse study of magic. They also have a longer history because we didn't manage to take all that history with us during the Sundering. A lot of the magic that Dark Elves have comes from Morathi's tutelage and starting over.
It's one of the reasons they have more options. They should have.

And finally, there is one reason High Elves have everything and often something slightly better. It has been coined as the "high elf ice cube syndrome": if one race (say, the empire) manages to have an ice cube, then the high elves also need to have an ice cube and a better one. Perhaps the high elf ice cube is colder, more elegant or simply better at being an ice cube for no reason other than being crafted by high elves. :D

I don't think it's a loss for us, as long as we can be fast, deadly and cruel!
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Lord Drakon »

Well spoken ! +1
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Lord hajjij »

That was a cool and nostalgic look back on the history of elves Daeron. Awesome. :)

BTW - Shadow Warriors also for some reason have a 5+ save and Shades have a 6+ save. (not sure if you accounted for that)

I don't feel we're lacking character in our scrolls: we're fast, wickedly cruel and have a strange sense of discipline that grants us partial immunity from battle shock due to losses.


High Elves may have more special rules, partly because they are supposed to "feel" more magical. They are the 'glittering host' after all. They need out of the ordinary mechanics. They always have: more magic, more items, more options. They are our superiors in items and magic.


I separated these quotes, but my response is combined for them, because overall this is my issue.

I think you're right: High Elves have better magic, more special rules, better items, and everything else you mentioned. I couldn't agree more for all the reasons you listed it makes sense...and I'd be fine with it except that they also do everything we're supposed to do just as good if not better.

IN AGE OF SIGMAR, THEY ARE ALSO FASTER*, THEY ARE ALSO "MORE CRUEL"**, AND THEY HAVE THE SAME OR BETTER DISCIPLINE.***

*Ellyrion Reavers are easily the fastest unit in the entire game. They dominate Dark Riders. They also have Eagles, and their Cavalry is faster than ours overall.
**Phoenix Guard have "Aura of Dread" which is just as good or better (the latter in my opinion) than say the Corsairs/Harpies rules (unless combined with Lokhir Fellheart), and they have a better Rend value overall than Dark Elves by a fairly large margin, which is something you could associate with cruelty.
***Similar or same Bravery, and they have just as many special rules like on Dragon Princes.

Sorry for the caps, but they are just straight up better in EVERY way. Yes, I am pissed about it.

-They have better shooting by A LOT. Sisters in particular are ridiculous in particular.
-They have much better "non-dragon" ridden monsters (Anointed on Phoenix or >>>>>>>>>> Beastmaster on Manticore)
-They have better elite troops. Shadow Warriors, by your own admission, are better than Shades as an example.
-They have better overall armor saves with the exception of Darkshards > Archers. Tons of their stuff is 4+ save.
-They have much better synergy between unit types, such as with their Lothern troops.

Could you go around and pick our certain anecdotal evidence that we're better in some ways? Sure, absolutely. I think we have a few minor advantages like the War Hydra's resilience. Let's even say we have some kind of Battleshock advantage and that's the example you want to use, that phase currently is easily the most negate-able phase in the game right now. It's like being the best at "throw in's" in football/soccer. Sure, it's a part of the game, but overall negligible compared to being amazing at a phase like shooting.

But, I stand by my analysis that we're just overall crap and our rules seem like they were put together at the 11th hour. It extends far beyond High Elves, they are just the closest comparison. Go look at Ogres for example - insanity. What hope do you have against a sizeable unit of Ironguts?
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Daeron »

You cast doubts and worries quickly, and it takes time to counter them. I can't go compare every unit just yet in an equal amount of time hehe! One at a time! One at a time! :)

The higher save of the Shadow Warriors is somewhat countered by the -1 to hit when the Shades are in cover. Keep in mind we granted cover to the Shadow Warriors. If you remove cover from both, Shades win in firepower. By my own "admission" the Shadow warriors have only a negligible advantage in shooting under the right circumstances that don't require Alith Anar

The Sisters are incredibly powerful, no doubt! This was also true in WFB. For what it's worth though, the unit can not move and shoot about as effectively as our Shades.
Shades move and shoot:
Image

Sister move and shoot:
Image

Again, it's the champion that pushes them to a minimal advantage. (on average 0.16666 wounds)
If they do get double shot, it's gonna hurt :P
But it's a tough unit to compare since we have no equivalent. Might as well ask what unit of theirs rivals our witch elves.


Elven shields vs Darkshields
Basically, one gets a bonus in combat, the other against shooting. Needless to say, the cover against shooting reinforces a defensive tactic but it's a mixed bag. An enemy can choose to shoot you. You can choose to get into combat with the enemy.

Standard bearer
Standard bearers works with other standard bearers for high elves, while ours work with heroes. Getting a hero nearby is easy, and great. It's a great combat modifier.

For the High Elves we can pick from:
- Spearmen
- Archers
- Silver helms
- Dragon Princes
- Phoenix Guard
- Swordmasters

While cavalry can reinforce infantry and back, this seems like a movement restriction on the cav.
Two units of cavalry seems interesting. Two units of infantry is also interesting but a little less. I think Archers are a very good combination there, but two combat units... hmm.. Maybe if one plays anvil and another plays flanker?
It almost reminds me of Empire regiments actually. Two fully fledged infantry units are solid, no doubt but it looks like they lose a lot of combat flexibility.

For defense, the High Elves win. Two units of archers backing each other up: nice. I'm giving this one to Dark Elves for sake of simplicity and localised power. It's harder to squeeze in the benefit of two infantry units, than it is to squeeze in a character.

Aura of Despair vs Ravagard and Slavers and Prey upon the weak
Interesting comparison.
First of, there's the range. 3" for the Phoenix Guard means it has to be a unit with which they are within combat range. They can't move within that range. So it's only going to apply in a combat they are in.
The Corsairs and Harpies have a longer range. Especially the Harpies. Now here's another interesting note. The Phoenix Guard make 1 model flee when its unit fails a battle shock test. The Corsairs and Harpies do a check for every model fleeing. True enough, you need quite a few for that to balance out on average but including the range I wouldn't note that theirs is far superior.
The way I see it... The Phoenix Guard are better at grinding it, but the Dark Elves can leverage a high kill score more easily.

Elyrian Reavers vs Dark Riders
The Reavers are doubtlessly the winner in shooting. Their base shooting is similar to that of the Dark Riders, but the quick volley easily makes them win. 2D6 move during shoot? lol. I guess being able to run and shoot just wasn't special enough.

The Dark Riders do show some combat support potential. It might be worth noting that, should they be crazy enough to run within shooting range of Dark Riders, the Dark Riders can charge them easily. In combat, the Dark Riders do have the bravery, the shields and the extra inch which just about exceeds a 50mm base so you can attack in two ranks. Not that I'd choose the unit for that reason but it's going to help in many a situation if you do pick the unit.

TBH, I'm not convinced they beat us at everything. I'd need to see it in action.
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Re: Not holding back - Disappointment with the "Exiles" rule

Post by Daeron »

After a check of the elite infantry units, I'm a bit puzzled. I'd gladly pit my black guard and executioners against their white lions and swormasters. We'd be spraying blood all over the place but we won't be shamed in the match up.
The Phoenix Guard are a bit of mystery. They almost got it all: 2" range, 2 attacks, good hit/wound, 4+ save and then a 4+ ward save. Hm. I imagine that, if they had given the 2" range to another unit (White Lions or Swordmasters) or if they had cut them down to 1 attack, it would have made a far more interesting and balanced comparison. Now they excel in both offense and defense.
It might be worth checking out Ulthuan.net to see their stance on this. By the looks of it, I see little reason to field anything but Phoenix Guard as elite infantry.

That said... Both our elite infantry is a bit stronger on the offense. While that may not work on the Phoenix Guard specifically, against most opponents we'll score more wounds and cause bigger battle shocks.

As for the ton of 4+ stuff, characters aside, they have 4+ saves for:

All heavy cavalry: Silverhelms, Dragon Princes
All heavy infantry: Phoenix Guard, Swordmasters, White lions
Other: White Lion chariot

Compared to our list of 4+ saves:

All heavy cavalry: Cold One Knights
All heavy infantry: Black Guard, Executioners
Other: Cold One Chariot, Hydra, Kharibdyss

They always had 2 heavy cavalry units, compared to our 1, and 3 heavy infantry units compared to our 2. We had Witch Elves and monsters in return.

As for magic. Their Dragonmage is pretty badass :)
The rest is quite okay, excluding characters. We may actually have an easier time dispelling and doing some damage if you consider Warlocks.
I don't see what you mean by synergy between Lothern troops. What synergy are you referring to?

I haven't compared our compendium with many other books yet. I did fight Dwarfs the other day... and I munched them. I even neglected to use all my re-rolls for my witches but they were munching unit after unit. My Cauldron of Blood couldn't keep up.
The lists we used were the same list we used 2 weeks ago in 8th edition. It was a much tougher match up in 8th edition. It wasn't a balanced fight in AoS though.
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