thoughness of cold ones

Gramash · Post by **Gramash** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:57 am

hey all,

i was wondering, is there any use for the cold one's thougness??

Post by **Dalamar** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:14 am

There isn't.

Gramash · Post by **Gramash** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:24 am

ok thanks

Stonecutter · Post by **Stonecutter** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:50 pm

The first FAQ issued a somewhat contradictory ruling to the BRB on characteristic tests for models with multiple parts and included cavalry in the example. The response was unless otherwise specified to use the "best value, ...that makes it more likely to pass the test." Since the FAQ came after the BRB, its rulings usually replace what's in the BRB. In this instance, the rules for cavalry on pg 7 indicate that the steeds Ld, T and W are never used. While I still stick with the rider T, W and Ld for checks, the FAQ could be interpreted as allowing a steed's characteristic to be used instead if it is more favourable.

Gramash · Post by **Gramash** » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:09 pm

ok i'll keep that in mind if it's ever needed to play hardcore

thanks

Blaznak · Post by **Blaznak** » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:52 pm

I think I lean with just thinking: No, there is no use. I would rather get the "good and friendly player points" when I crush my enemies than the "He really dissects rules" comments.
~B~

Crawd · Post by **Crawd** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:39 pm

The only use I found is to showoff the T4 in my armies!

Desmodeus · Post by **Desmodeus** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:30 pm

lol I'd go the logical approach, who's going to shoot at the big, angry reptile when the squishy elf sitting on top is a much better target? :p

Gramash · Post by **Gramash** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:53 pm

but in comparison the elf is much smaller, maybe a nice idea: 1-3 is mount 4-6 is rider? (for shooting)

Desmodeus · Post by **Desmodeus** » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:40 pm

Yeah, but sitting on top.

I think GW decided to randomise for Large mounts and just assume the rider was easy enough to hit for smaller ones, I'd tend to agree.

Shrike · Post by **Shrike** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:13 pm

It means that whenever you face something that forces you to take toughness tests, you can use the Cold One's higher Toughness. Nice against new Skaven.

Timz · Post by **Timz** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:26 am

Shrike wrote:It means that whenever you face something that forces you to take toughness tests, you can use the Cold One's higher Toughness. Nice against new Skaven.

Incorrect.
Rulebook states that cavalry mount's toughness and leadership are NEVER used.

Ulric darksoul · Post by **Ulric darksoul** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:04 pm

Timz wrote:Incorrect.
Rulebook states that cavalry mount's toughness and leadership are NEVER used.

don't be so harsh and close read his argument before the last. it's on a FAQ. If it's on GW FAQ then it's not so "incorrect" as you state...

eventhough i still use T3 for the cavalry :p

Timz · Post by **Timz** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:41 pm

Ulric Darksoul wrote:
Timz wrote:Incorrect.
Rulebook states that cavalry mount's toughness and leadership are NEVER used.

don't be so harsh and close read his argument before the last. it's on a FAQ. If it's on GW FAQ then it's not so "incorrect" as you state...

eventhough i still use T3 for the cavalry :p

Which FAQ is that?

Because the rulebook very clearly states
"Cavalry models always use the rider's Leadership, Toughness and Wounds. The steed's Ld, T and W as well as the rider's Movement, are never used."

Anything short of an Errata wouldn't override something so clear.

Cananatra · Post by **Cananatra** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:43 pm

I may be incorrect, but doesnt it say in the BRB(which i dont have with me to check)[maybe somewere else], that a model always uses the best statistic, if it has several of the same, for these type of tests?

EDIT: Found it!
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/conte ... 06&start=2
First PDF.

Q. Occasionally, a model with multiple parts that have
different Characteristics, such as a cavalry model, a
Character riding a Monster or a Chariot, will have to
take a Characteristic test (like an Initiative test for a Pit
of Shades spell). If the model has multiple values for the
Characteristic to be tested, which one is used?
A. Unless differently specified, use the best value, in other
words the value that makes it more likely to pass the test.

Timz · Post by **Timz** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:17 am

Cananatra wrote:I may be incorrect, but doesnt it say in the BRB(which i dont have with me to check)[maybe somewere else], that a model always uses the best statistic, if it has several of the same, for these type of tests?

EDIT: Found it!
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/conte ... 06&start=2
First PDF.

Q. Occasionally, a model with multiple parts that have
different Characteristics, such as a cavalry model, a
Character riding a Monster or a Chariot, will have to
take a Characteristic test (like an Initiative test for a Pit
of Shades spell). If the model has multiple values for the
Characteristic to be tested, which one is used?
A. Unless differently specified, use the best value, in other
words the value that makes it more likely to pass the test.

Ah, thank you. That complicates it a little.

On one hand the actual rulebook literally specifies that you don't use cavalry mount's toughness.
On the other hand a FAQ (unofficial house ruling) says that unless otherwise specified (it's specified in the rulebook cavalry don't use their toughness) then the best stat is used.

I would go with the official rulebook on this one, because the implications of the other wouldn't make sense to me when applied to cavalry.

The FAQ makes sense when it comes to pit-of-shades since that is an initiative test to represent what falls into the hole. The mount is the one doing movement.

But on toughness it does not. If a cloud of nurgle disease is murdering the cold one's rider, he's not going to suddenly not-succumb because his raptor has good fortitude.

When an archer attacks or a spell is used, it's being sent primarily at the rider. A naked person riding a cold one would get a 5+. A person with a 1+ set of armor gets that 1+. If people were shooting the mount, it wouldn't matter what shield the rider was holding in his hand, it'd be easy to kill the raptor.

It's only when the rider is not so significant (A Character Riding A Monster or a Chariot) that it makes sense to give the toughness test to the huge dragon instead of the rider.

So I'd stick with what the actual rulebook says and what makes sense, unless it made sense for some specific stat-test to affect mount instead.

Pit on the ground = Sound's like a mount deal to me.
Poison gas = Doesn't matter if horse survives if the toughness 2 wizard riding it is dead.

Cananatra · Post by **Cananatra** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:59 pm

I hate to break it to you, but a GW released ruling is not in any way unofficial. If it is then the rulebook is equaly unofficial. The answer given even mentions cavalry models, of which cold one knights are.

Toughness is a characteristic. A toughness test is a characteristic test. The answer given by games workshop, the creators who decide on the rules of this game, is that you use the stat which gives you the best chance of success.

Unless differently specified refers to the terms of what is causeing the characteristic test.

And using whats common sense to determine what GW means is an excercise in futility. Just follow what they say.

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:42 am

The very own disclaimer of GWShop is that FAQs are NOT official while Erratas are Official ruling.

The FAQs are unofficial because they are opinions from their point of view on those rules for certain situations that aren't clear.

Thus one can choose not to play with the FAQs but the majority of gaming areas will use FAQs.

Kuanor · Post by **Kuanor** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:05 am

On the other hand: GW has a clear position about ‘rules as meant vs. rules as written’ and the FAQs explain, how the creator of the rules (GW) would prefer to have meant them. This makes the FAQs compulsory.

Bounce · Post by **Bounce** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:03 am

If the characteristics can't be used why not make Cold Ones T10 and Ld 10.
I suppose they would think this deserves a points increase though.

Timz · Post by **Timz** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:58 am

What's compulsory or not in this case is just your opinion. If they want something to be compulsory then they can errata it. They purposefully list erratas and FAQs under separate headings and include a large disclaimer explaining the difference between erratas and FAQs.

Ulric darksoul · Post by **Ulric darksoul** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:05 pm

be aware that all this is for tests, not for resolving hits.

if black horror strikes the CoK, then use the strength of the knights, if a nurgle spell (which i asume it must be one that do similar) strikes the CoK, and a T test is needed, use the CoK's...

if an arrow is fired, it's still against the knight and not the Co wich takes it, even though the probability and fluff states that it would be the mounted and not the mountee which normallly would take the hit :p

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:04 am

Actually, most Nurgle and Daemon stuff specify "use the lowest value available".

So we're screwed with that.