Characters and Panic Tests

Have a question about the Warhammer rules? Ask them here!

Moderator: The Dread Knights

Post Reply
Yagdresil
Slave (off the Altar)
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:17 pm

Characters and Panic Tests

Post by Yagdresil »

If a unit is completly destroyed by shooting or magic around a character does he still take the panic test due to 25% casualties?

I thought that he should, but my opponent argued otherwise, can someone point me to were in the rulebook it gives an answer to this question?

Thank you
Maldor
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1071
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:13 pm

Post by Maldor »

If he's in a unit that takes 25% casualties they test for panic, with the character's Ld if higher than the unit's, and he flees with them if they fail. If a unit of unit strength 5 or higher is destroyed or breaks within 6" of him he must test. Only exception is if he's immune to psych or panic.
Lock up your children, shut all windows tight.
The Witch Elves are hunting for victims tonight.
When old hags do knock at your door, you must hide,
Your death is the gift sought by Khaine's pretty brides.
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Post by Calisson »

Supposing that there were initially the character and a single R&F model in the same unit.
The R&F gets shot.
The unit has lost over 25% of its complement, compared to what it had at the start of the phase (and the fact that the character is now alone does not change that he was in the unit at the start of the phase, see p/49).

Furthermore, for rule lawyers, the character never left the unit: this can be done only during the movement phase (p.73, last column - there is no other way to leave a unit that is mentioned).
Therefore, the character is still to be considered inside the unit, which has now a complement of 0 (plu himself), until his next movement phase.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
User avatar
Red...
Generalissimo
Posts: 3750
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Location: Baltimore

Post by Red... »

Indeed,

Also, as I understand it: if the character fails the rally test then its gameover for him, as the unit has less than 25% of its starting total and so cannot rally according to the rules.

BRB 19:

"If a fleeing unit (including any characters that have joined the unit) has less than 25% of its original numbers left, the unit cannot rally and will continue to flee until it leaves the table or is destroyed. Characters may never join/leave a fleeing unit".

So best hope that lone surviving character passes that leadership test, otherwise he's dead!

Ironically, if he passes, then gets made to flee again in a later turn, he won't have the same problem, as he will no longer be part of the unit.
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Post by Dalamar »

Therefore, the character is still to be considered inside the unit, which has now a complement of 0 (plu himself), until his next movement phase.


Be careful with interpretations like that Calisson. Using your interpretation, a VC player could raise a completele destroyed unit of 5 Blood Knights + Vampire as long as the vampire stays alive. And that is not true. If the unit is dead, the unit is dead instantly.

As for the original question - The character was a part of the unit at the beginning of the phase so he has to take a panic test for losing 25% of his unit (even if it ends up with the unit being entirely gone).

If a single character loses his unit and fails the following panic test he's free to rally next turn - next turn he's no longer part of any unit.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
User avatar
Red...
Generalissimo
Posts: 3750
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Location: Baltimore

Post by Red... »

If the unit is dead, the unit is dead instantly.


Can you cite me where you're getting that rule from?

I was under the impression that a VC player could ressurrect blood knights as long as the vampire was still alive (in fact that happened to me in a recent game, although it did little to stem his crushing defeat)

If a single character loses his unit and fails the following panic test he's free to rally next turn - next turn he's no longer part of any unit.


I'm not convinced that's how it works tbh. Otherwise if the unit fled with one warrior left and one hero, the hero couldn't ever rally, but if there were no warriors left he could do so.

I do hold that until he formally leaves the unit, the unit continues to be him.

Why? Because a unit of 19 warriors and 1 master count as a unit of 20 for all purposes (including for working out the ratio of 25% casualties needed for a panic test). If the 19 warriors are killed, the unit still exists: it just consists of 1 master. The character is not independently housed as part of the unit, he is counted as being part of the unit until he formally leaves it (that's why sea serpent standard affects characters in a corsair unit: he is a member of the unit, not separate to it).

Unless he formally leaves, he is a member of the unit, whether or not there is anyone else left with him.

Obviously if there are no other members left at the start of his turn and he is not fleeing, then he leaves the unit and resumes life as a single character. But if he is fleeing, he can not leave the unit, so continues to be in it and is destroyed.
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Post by Dalamar »

Otherwise if the unit fled with one warrior left and one hero, the hero couldn't ever rally, but if there were no warriors left he could do so.


That is actually true, so the best way to get rid of heroes in units is drop them under 25% of starting numbers and panic them when they can't rally.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Post by Calisson »

I my have pushed the rules a little bit in my previous answer.

If we take the shooting phase for which there was a question, the character was inside a unit at the start of the phase, the unit gets 25%+ casualty, the character has a panic test. The rules mentions explicitely that it is the situation at the start of the shooting phase which is taken into account, i.e. when the character was part of the unit.

However, I would never go as far as Red for rallying:
Sure, a character cannot specifically leave a fleeing unit. However, I acknowledge that, in the next movement phase, there is no more unit to be part of (and there is no need to keep track of it until the end of the game).
So I would let the character try to rally.
Same in case of a character fleeing with 1 or 2 R&F, if a template drifts there and kills the R&F, then the character finds suddenly himself free to rally in the next turn, freed from the unit which was dragging him. And this is one reason why it is forbidden to kill your own troops purposedly!

And, in the subsequent magic phase, I would not allow a VC to raise deads from a unit which was non-existent at the start of the magic phase.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
User avatar
Red...
Generalissimo
Posts: 3750
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Location: Baltimore

Post by Red... »

And, in the subsequent magic phase, I would not allow a VC to raise deads from a unit which was non-existent at the start of the magic phase.


In the game I played, during my turn I charged with Hellebron, got challenged by the vamp hero, killed him, butchered him and won combat by so much that I killed all 5 blood knights and did a ton of wounds on his Von Carstein General.

In his turn, he used a spell to raise two blood knights back (well, technically he tried to raise 4, but I blocked two!). Was that then illegal?
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
User avatar
Comrade igor
Daemon in Disguise
Posts: 2101
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:13 pm
Location: London, UK.
Contact:

Post by Comrade igor »

Yes.
Best Regards, Comrade Igor.

Where there's a Whip there's a Way
User avatar
Cananatra
Malekith's Personal Guard
Posts: 910
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:19 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Post by Cananatra »

You cant raise a unit if the unit no longer exists.
If only a hero who was in the unit remains that hero is no longer in a unit because the units gone.

So with only his hero left your opponent could not try and use the invocation in his next turn to bring back the blood knights,
Group 28- Name: Cananatra; Warrior; Follower of Slaanesh
WS:4 S:4 T:5 D:4 I:3
Equipment: MC Long sword, Throwing Axe, Dagger, Heavy Armour, Slaanesh Amulet, Dalvian Hunting Horn, Rations x 7, Null stone x 1, 525 Gold, Dark Steed, Blackpowder Pistol [18/18]
Skills: Defensive Fighting, Ride, Endurance
User avatar
Laina
Trainee Warrior
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:59 am

Post by Laina »

The whole raising this is common sense is it not? If the unit dies... it's dead?
User avatar
Red...
Generalissimo
Posts: 3750
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Location: Baltimore

Post by Red... »

Cool, thanks Comrade Igor and Cananatra. I guess I just took his word for it at the time, I'll know better for next time :)

The whole raising this is common sense is it not?


Sadly, common sense and warhammer rules do not always go hand in hand.
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
User avatar
Laina
Trainee Warrior
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:59 am

Post by Laina »

Sadly, common sense and warhammer rules do not always go hand in hand.


I guess so, everyone would inteprete the wording differently.
Post Reply