deathpiercer

[Savonarola]

guys is the KB of the item now limited to the charge only? thanks!

[Dyvim tvar]

Don't see why it would be ... there is still a rule that characters armed with magic weapons have to use them at all times.

[Calisson]

KB is limited to charge only because it is a lance.
In the lance entry, it is written that the weapon is used when charging, and replaced with a handweapon during other rounds of melee.
This is a rare case of a change of weapon during an ongoing melee, and using a mundane weapon instead of a magic one.

[Thanee]

And that makes this weapon unplayable, unfortunately.

Bye
Thanee

[Jl177]

I don't have the rulebook handy, but doesn't it say that the character will ALWAYS use the magical weapon unless it's destroyed?

I know the lance section says one thing, but does the magical weapon clause overrule that?

[Playa23]

Yeah I think so with deathpiercer being the exception like Calisson says. In the case that a character has two I think you have to choose one per round of combat but I might be wrong

[Meteor]

Indeed both cases are stated in the BRB, but I'm quite sure the lance overrules the magic weapon here because you don't really use lances in CC...

[Dyvim tvar]

I don't have the rulebook handy, but doesn't it say that the character will ALWAYS use the magical weapon unless it's destroyed?

I know the lance section says one thing, but does the magical weapon clause overrule that?

This.

Fact is, it was the same in 7th Ed. The rules about lances and magical weapons are the same in substance in 8th as they were in 7th. The exact same question arose in 7th Ed. when the Dark Elf Book came out -- people wanted to know if Deathpiercer granted Killing Blow in subsequent rounds of combat. The conclusion was that it does. Nothing in the 8th Ed. rules change the logic used to arrive at that conclusion.

[The virgin forest]

Except that its a lance, follows the rules for such, and the rules for lances (and cavalry spears) specifically says that they are only used on the first turn of combat

[Dyvim tvar]

... and that's no different from 7th. Ed. lance rules which said that bearer of a lance was presumed to switch to hand weapon in subsequent rounds of combat.

[Ebonyphoenix]

The only time you wouldn't be able to use Deathpiercer in CC is if you are on a monstrous mount/chariot and it gets killed out from under you.

Following a logic trend (which may be flawed, but I'm sticking to it ):

The magic weapon rules trumps all other weaponry rules. (I believe the paragraph is called "I'm using this one!") This includes a statement that if you have a magic weapon, you are required to use it instead of any other weapon in your possession that is not magical itself.

Lance special rules specify that it is unusable in any subsequent rounds of combat and you must use a handweapon instead.

Therefore, normally you would have a catch-22. You have a weapon that must be used, and cannot be used at the same time.

However, since the magic weapon rule states you cannot use your handweapon, and under the assumption that you must use a weapon in combat since there is no alternative ruling for fighting with an empty hand, I would presume the magic aura over-rides the default lance setting and results in Deathpiercer/Caledor's Bane/Star Lance/(insert magic lance here) being usable during subsequent rounds of combat.

Now, this could be argued over further, and I understand that there are people who have no problem finding holes in my logic. However, if you intend to say that the magic lance cannot be used, please reference where in the Tome of Rules we can use just our fists since we also cannot use handweapons/halberds/greatweapons/etc in any round of combat per the magic weapon rules.

[Calisson]

... and that's no different from 7th. Ed. lance rules which said that bearer of a lance was presumed to switch to hand weapon in subsequent rounds of combat.

Actually, this IS a new rule in the 8th ed.
In the 7th ed, the rule stated that the lance granted a bonus in the turn of the charge but did not mention that the weapon was unusable hereafter.
So it was legitimate to keep the KB in subsequent turns.

In the 8th ed, there is a NEW rule for lances.
The rule is that lances are used only on the charge, after that (or if not charging) you have to use your handweapon.
Deathpiercer IS a lance. You get +2 S on the charge AND you drop it in subsequent turns of melee.
In other rounds of melee, the bearer will obviously use his melee weapon, as he has no choice.

This is more natural as before in the 7th ed, when you could use your lance's KB even after your mount was killed under you!

[Dalamar]

But at the same time, he's using a magic weapon so he can't drop the lance and use hand weapon as he has no choice.

See the problem Calisson?

[Calisson]

please reference where in the Tome of Rules we can use just our fists

Fists are not included.
Teeth are (p.88 ).

For anyone who refuses to use the handweapon because of the "magic weapon precedence" rule,
assume that your character has teeth!
- You're allowed to use your teeth
- the stats are the same as for a handweapon
- you don't break the "lance use on charge only" rule
- you don't break the "cannot use mundane handweapon" rule.




Problem solved.
(but was there a problem, really? or were there frustrated powergamers only?
this discussion is becoming quite ridiculous )

[Dalamar]

The magic weapon rule means the character will not use anything other than the magic weapon... because they have a magic weapon and it's awesome!

[Calisson]

Dalamar, edited above.
Have also a look page 88, in the column on the far left bottom, written is small letters.
The RAI is explained there.
For the RAW, I stick to my conclusion posted just previously.

I won't post anymore on this thread.
If you want to keep running this fun discussion, do it, but please don't quote me anywhere else!

[Dyvim tvar]

In the 8th ed, there is a NEW rule for lances.
The rule is that lances are used only on the charge, after that (or if not charging) you have to use your handweapon.
Deathpiercer IS a lance. You get +2 S on the charge AND you drop it in subsequent turns of melee.
In other rounds of melee, the bearer will obviously use his melee weapon, as he has no choice.

Callison -- This is NOT new. There was language in the 7th Ed. Rule book to the same effect -- that the bearer of the lance used a hand weapon in subsequent rounds. Consequently, people were asking the same question under 7th Ed. rules as they are asking now. Just use the search function and look for "deathpiercer" in the rules forum and you'll see multiple examples. Here is one: http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=59347&highlight=deathpiercer

Bottom line is that both 7th and 8th edition contained versions of the same two apparently contradictory rules -- the inability to use a lance in subsequent rounds of combat and the necessity of using your magic weapon at all times. Since GW never covered it directly in an FAQ, you may be correct that the lance rule takes precedence over the magic weapon rule. However, there is no difference in the rules on the issue between 7th and 8th. The same logic and reasoning applies in either case. And if you played it before that deathpiercer gets killing blow in subsequent rounds of combat, there is no reason to play it differently now.

[Calisson]

I won't post anymore on this thread.

Never say never!


Dyvim Tvar, I did look in the 7th rulebook, p.56: no mention of a charge-only USE but just a charge-only BONUS.

In the 7th ed, it was later FAQed (2nd FAQ, Feb 2009) that if the character bearing a lance was dismounted (chariot or mount destroyed), then the lance would disappear. Even a magic lance was lost, forcing the character to use his handweapon instead, overruling the rule stating that you had to finish the combat with the same weapon that you started with, and the rule that you had to use a magic weapon if you had one.


In the 8th edition, it is now mentioned that lances can be used only in the charge (p.91). It is a charge-only USE.
I maintain that this is new.

[Thanee]

I agree with Calisson.

Especially, since the other way it would mean, that characters with magic lances could not fight at all during subsequent rounds of combat.

Can't use your handweapon, because you have a magic weapon.
Can't use your magic weapon, because it is a lance.

I rather think it works like this.

Must use your magic weapon, but it cannot be used.
Therefore you use your handweapon, because you have no usable magic weapon.

Bye
Thanee

[Jl177]

Well, now that I have my rulebook handy and have read the section again.....I'm going to say that no, you cannot use deathpiercer on non-charge turns

Reading the magical weapon rule, it says "if the magical weapon is somehow destroyed or rendered useless" with "rendered useless" being the key phrase. A lance is "useless" after the charge, therefore deathpiercer cannot be used after the charge. You could give the character a regular special weapon, such as a halberd, as a backup weapon that he would use after the charge if you wanted to though.

[Vulcan]

Personally, I think a lance is just as 'useless' after a charge as a spear would be; the two are fucntionally identical once the charge is done.

But, whatever, GW. It's not like this is the only rule they have written that doesn't make sense.

<cough> Dwarves chargeing up to 15", Dark Riders minimum charge 11" <cough> How do the stubby little b*****ds outrun horses? <cough>

[Meteor]

Just because it's magical doesn't mean it can disobey the physical limits of the mundane weapon it's derived from guys.

I absolutely agree with Calisson. You either use the lance rules to full effect, or use none of it at all, because people here are going "I want this rule (the +2 S on charge), but I'm going to disregard this rule (can't use in subsequent combat rounds)".

Fair enough you're justifying it with the magic weapon rule contradicting it, but it still stands to reason that you cannot wield a lance and expect to lop someone's head off when the pointy end is another meter behind them. We're agile, but not THAT agile. And besides, who says magic weapon rules trumps mundane weapon rules? That's just a self presumed reasoning, there's nothing in RAW that specifically states that magic items will take precedence over any contradicting effects of mundane weapons.

Dyv, throw away 7th ed knowledge, it is 8th ed now

[Savonarola]

many thanks for so many answers. This is a game so rules matter and thats what we need to analyze. trying to imply "real world logic" is wrong. In the real world, you lose the lance totally after the first round of the combat, charging or not, and you never get it back, just for example.

Lifetaker is a repeater crossbow (fashioned from blackest steel!) and is not armor piercing. So, it is right to say that magic items do not automatically bear all aspects of their mundane versions. Anyway. For me, the think is still debatable - subject for gentlemanly 4+ roll, probably.

[Markusswe]

Also agree with Calisson. Can't use deathpiercer after chargernd of combat and thus won't get KB. Which of course means it's pretty crappy in 8th.

[Thanee]

Lifetaker is not a repeater crossbow. Rulewise, that is.

It would have to include "Repeater Crossbow." in the rules text.

Fluffwise, of course it is, but it is even stronger, not only does it get the -1 armour save modifier (because it is S4!), it also shoots faster, farther, more precisely, and wounds easier.

Bye
Thanee