Armour of Living Death and the new FAQ

[N3ctaris]

Quick question regarding an old over priced magic item and the new FAQ.

As you all know, the new FAQ made Monstrous Cav quite desirable by using the best T and W of the model.

The Armour of Living Death has an odd wording that may be used to create a T5 Dreadlord, specifically "Heavy Armor. In addition, the MODEL has +1 Toughness and +1 Wound...".

When a Dreadlord is placed on a Pegasus mount, they become monstrous cav or one model per the rulebook.

Does this give the model T5 and W4?

[Holt]

This is what I thought too when I first read it. Then I had it pointed out that the rule uses the highest of the 2 stats available. This would mean that the Dreadlord would become T4 and the Pegasus would also be T4 so it doesnt matter which one you use as they are the same, the same applies for the wounds. It would be nice to have the armour add to the T of the Pegasus but it isnt the way that it works, it isnt the mount wearing the armour after all I guess haha.

I can see your point about the wording but I do not think that would be the way that it is played, someone can feel free to prove me wrong though.

[Pil0din]

The model have T4 and W4, cause Dreadlord and Pegasus have 3 Wounds, u use the Highnest. Dreadlord´s T is 3 and with this armour he became T4, soo T will be 4.

[N3ctaris]

Totally on board with the scenario where this does not work to give T5 and W4 to the unit.

However, is there a rule in any book or FAQ that I can quote to show that it does NOT work?

The wording on the item as it stands now implies that the +1 T and +1 W are to the model. Which in this case, includes the mount.

[Liquidedust]

This is what I thought too when I first read it. Then I had it pointed out that the rule uses the highest of the 2 stats available. This would mean that the Dreadlord would become T4 and the Pegasus would also be T4 so it doesnt matter which one you use as they are the same, the same applies for the wounds. It would be nice to have the armour add to the T of the Pegasus but it isnt the way that it works, it isnt the mount wearing the armour after all I guess haha.

I can see your point about the wording but I do not think that would be the way that it is played, someone can feel free to prove me wrong though.

Since Monstrous Beasts counts as Monstrous Cavalry when ridden they also follow the Cavalry rules, which specifically indicates the rules for split profile and defines that that they count as a single model in regards to their characteristics (page 82 of the rulebook).

With the new FAQ for Monstrous Cavalry it means that model -does- have T5 and W4. This since they get a base T4 and W3 for the model, due to the wording of the FAQ for Monstrous Cavalry, Monstrous Beast rules (page 85 of the rulebook), Monstrous Cavalry rules (page 83 of the rulebook) and the split profile of Cavalry rules (page 82 of the rulebook).

emphasis mine:

Although a cavarly model has two sets of characteristics, one for the rider and one for the mount, it is treated in all respects as a single model - the rider cannot dismount. When moving, the cavalry model always uses the Movement characteristic of the mount and never of the rider.

All of the Cavalry rules apply to monstrous cavalry, with two exceptions – monstrous cavalry always use the highest Toughness and Wounds characteristics characteristics the model has, rather than automatically using the rider's - indeed this will normally means that the model uses the mount's Wounds characteristic.

[N3ctaris]

This is what I thought too when I first read it. Then I had it pointed out that the rule uses the highest of the 2 stats available. This would mean that the Dreadlord would become T4 and the Pegasus would also be T4 so it doesnt matter which one you use as they are the same, the same applies for the wounds. It would be nice to have the armour add to the T of the Pegasus but it isnt the way that it works, it isnt the mount wearing the armour after all I guess haha.

I can see your point about the wording but I do not think that would be the way that it is played, someone can feel free to prove me wrong though.

Since Monstrous Beasts counts as Monstrous Cavalry when ridden they also follow the Cavalry rules, which specifically indicates the rules for split profile and defines that that they count as a single model in regards to their characteristics (page 82 of the rulebook).

With the new FAQ for Monstrous Cavalry it means that model -does- have T5 and W4. This since they get a base T4 and W3 for the model, due to the wording of the FAQ for Monstrous Cavalry, Monstrous Beast rules (page 85 of the rulebook), Monstrous Cavalry rules (page 83 of the rulebook) and the split profile of Cavalry rules (page 82 of the rulebook).

emphasis mine:

Although a cavarly model has two sets of characteristics, one for the rider and one for the mount, it is treated in all respects as a single model - the rider cannot dismount. When moving, the cavalry model always uses the Movement characteristic of the mount and never of the rider.

All of the Cavalry rules apply to monstrous cavalry, with two exceptions – monstrous cavalry always use the highest Toughness and Wounds characteristics characteristics the model has, rather than automatically using the rider's - indeed this will normally means that the model uses the mount's Wounds characteristic.

Anyone else excited to run a T5 W4 2+AS lord with the pendant?

I give the ETC nerf of this combo 2 months.

[Silverheimdall]

The mount isn't wearing the armour.

The profile goes from
T3
T4

to

T4
T4

Now use the highest.

[Liquidedust]

The mount isn't wearing the armour.

The profile goes from
T3
T4

to

T4
T4

Now use the highest.

Only if the mount is a monster, which the dark pegasus isn't. Since it is a Monstrous Beast you have T4 and count as a single model.

The profile goes from:

T3
T4

to only

T4

You cannot target the pegasus individually anymore once it is mounted so you only have one Toughness characteristic, which is 4.

[Sulla]

The mount isn't wearing the armour.

The profile goes from
T3
T4

to

T4
T4

Now use the highest.

Warhammer cav and monstrous cav do wear the armour though, as they are just one model. I think this is enough of a grey area of rules to be worth asking the question in an FAQ.

(I wouldn't play it as t5 myself but it is a fair enough question asking about the sequencing of the mount's toughness boost and magical equipment's toughness boost since it has never come up in the game before as far as I can remember.)

[Calisson]

Warhammer cav and monstrous cav do wear the armour though, as they are just one model.

Not enough.

Is there a rule in any book or FAQ that I can quote to show that it does NOT work?

Yes.
The army book.
The magic objects are listed as an improvement of the rider.
Hence:

The profile goes from
T3
T4

to

T4
T4

Now use the highest.

Comment:
Guys, we don't need to cross the red line and become too greedy for cheese, do we?

[Liquidedust]

Warhammer cav and monstrous cav do wear the armour though, as they are just one model.

No.

Is there a rule in any book or FAQ that I can quote to show that it does NOT work?

Yes.
The army book.
The magic objects are listed as an improvement of the rider.
Hence:

The profile goes from
T3
T4

to

T4
T4

Now use the highest.

Guys, we don't need to cross the red line and become too greedy for cheese, do we?

But its not stretching the rules in this case, since Monstrous Beasts doesn't follow the Ridden Monster rules. It uses a split profile and for all intents and purposes a ridden monstrous beast -has- the highest T and W of the split profile since it counts as Monstrous Cavalry and by extension Cavalry.

The rider and mount is inseperable and counts as a single model and therefore, in this case with a Dark Pegasus, has a base T4 and W3 due to the monstrous cavalry/cavalry rules and the new FAQ.

Basically monstrous beasts do not have riders as per the rules, only ridden monsters do which Dark Pegasi doesn't count as since it is a Monstrous Beast.

[Calisson]

Agree on everything. So what?
Whatever effort you make, you cannot fit an armor on a pegasus, even if the pegasus is already wearing a character.

Rulewise, the armor is not an improvement of the pegasus.
Both pegasus and armor are improvements of the character.


If I followed your logics, are you implying that giving the sword of battle to the character provides +1 attack to the pegasus too?
Nonsense.
Same for improving the pegasus' T with an armour.

[Liquidedust]

Agree on everything. So what?
Whatever effort you make, you cannot fit an armor on a pegasus, even if the pegasus is already wearing a hero.

Rulewise, the armor is not an improvement of the pegasus.
Both pegasus and armor are improvements of the hero.

Which gives him a base T4 and W3 before additional boosts, and since it counts as cavalry it is "in all respects treated as a single model" straight from the rulebook. And the armour gives +1 T/W to the model, heck it could even give it to the character himself and the rules would still apply.

What is the rider and what is the mount is completely irrelevant in regards to T and W when it comes to cavalry, which a Dark Pegasus is classified as.

The model therefore only has one T and one W characteristic, which in this case is T4 and W3. And that isn't even stretching any rule whatsoever, it is applied verbatim exactly as written.

If anything seperating the rider from the mount in case of monstrous cavalary and Toughness/Wounds doesn't even exist as a rule, and we're starting to make things up.

1. It counts as a single model. (page 82 of the rulebook)
2. It uses the highest T and W of the split profile. (page 83 of the rulebook with the new FAQ applied)
3. The rules for ridden monsters do not apply (page 105 of the rulebook)
4. Then you apply bonuses from other sources as normal.

[Calisson]

The fact that a mount cannot don any armour but only barding is written nowhere as a rule. That's just English vocabulary, AFAIK (English is not my first language).

If you want to play using only RAW and ignore such thing as the meaning of vocabulary, then yes, you can get a T5 dreadlord.
If you play using both RAW and English vocabulary, then no, you cannot get a T5 dreadlord.

To which point are you a RAW player?

[Omnichron]

Then all the armors and weapons would work for both character and mount. However it's not how it works. The mount is an addition to the character, just like the weapon is. It's a choice that gives the lord/hero extra benefits, and amongst them comes the ability to use the wounds and toughness from the mount. The other items don't give the mount anything, it gives the character those things.

[Red...]

Then all the armors and weapons would work for both character and mount. However it's not how it works. The mount is an addition to the character, just like the weapon is. It's a choice that gives the lord/hero extra benefits, and amongst them comes the ability to use the wounds and toughness from the mount. The other items don't give the mount anything, it gives the character those things.

+1.

Comment:
Guys, we don't need to cross the red line and become too greedy for cheese, do we?

+1.

[Lord tsunami]

ye lol. as if the immortal roadblock wasnt immortal enough? even if it DID work, why would you want to pay more points to make an unkillable model more unkillable?

[Ataroth]

Tbf even if this did work, I thought our "unkillable" Dreadlords strength lay in the fact he was Stubborn as well? If you gave him The Armour of Living Death and the Pendent, you cannot afford the Crown of Command thus meaning he becomes more vulnerable IMO.

As for if the ruling actually does work the confusion for me lies in the fact the Armour says the "MODEL has +1 wounds and Toughness" then if we go to the Cavalry page in the BRB it does say that mount and rider are treated in ALL respects as a single model so technically this would apply to both the rider and the mount via RAW though I don't believe that's the intention. Also this would only apply to any magic item that uses the word "model" in its description and The Armour of Living Death is the only item in our book and the BRB which does.

I still think it's RAW overkill though and wouldn't personally use it. Don't think it tactically worthwhile either as well.

[Scyloc]

Armor of living death does nothing on a pegasus mounted DE character.

If your hell bent on getting T5. Use shield of Ghrond instead.