Questions about the itty gritty details of the lore of metal

[Daeron]

As I'm preparing for a battle with a single Metal sorc as my Lord choice, I was going through the itty gritty details of the Lore. I bumped into a few questions and would like to double check my reasoning.


Plague of rust, the lore attribute, skullcrushers

Some sources claim that plague of rust reduces the impact of Plague of Rust. Some don't. To me it's unclear. The description clearly states the hits from the lore attribute work on the "unmodified armor save". Is plague of rust not a modifier? From the description, I assume it is a permanent modifier.

It gets more complex when taking skullcrushers. On Warseer (*shudder*) I found a debate on the effects of plague of rust on Skullcrushers who, apparently, would have a 0+ armor save. Of course, armor save is capped at 1+ AS. That doesn't seem to discourage one part of the debaters (probably chaos players) to religiously defend that plague of rust works on skullcrushers but brings their (0+ capped to) 1+ AS to 1+AS. The logic here is:
- +3 from the mount
- +3 from the chaos armor
- +1 from the shield
- -1 from plague of rust
= 1+
If they would enter combat without plague of rust, then their armor would still be capped at 1+ before armor modifiers of strength and armor piercing would apply. The effect of "plague of rust" is calculated as if it affected the character's sheet, and it isn't really a "modifier", just a permanent effect.

Personally I don't see how either logic can be valid. A skullcrusher model has a 1+ AS, total. It gets a plague of rust modifier on the model. Now the model has a 1+AS -1 AS giving it a 2+AS. Searing doom works on the unmodified armor save, which means even with 2 or 3 plagues of rust, it would still wound the crushers on a 2+.

Enchanted blades of Aiban... and magic resistance

A rather simple one to answer. If the enchanted blades of aiban make attacks count as "magical" with all the benefits it grants against ethereal creatures... Is it correct to assume it also triggers magic resistance? Would this mean that a model, in particular demons, with 5+ WS and MR(1) get a 4+ WS against attacks or missile fire from a unit with this augment?

I would believe so. But I'd like to know for sure

Glittering Robe

It grants a scaly skin. Scaly skin is defined as a special rule... Which means it inherits the a nasty attribute: it does not stack with another scaly skin unless explicitly stated otherwise. As it doesn't explicitly state otherwise, is it correct to assume this does not work on Hydras and Dragon armor?

It would work on Cold One Knights, as they are labeled "thick skinned", which simply adds an extra armor save. This could bring a 2+ AS from COKs to 0+ which is then capped to 1+ for all purposes.

Combining this with plague of rust:
- A COK unit with plague of rust on it has a 3+ save
- Would giving it scaly skin give it a 1+ save?

It would seem like "yes" might conflict with the "no" from the skullcrusher answer but the truth is that in this case, we're always talking about modifiers, not basic armor save.
Still.. this would appear a bit fishy to me. If this were correct, then I'd assume the skullcrushers to retain a 1+ AS as well.

Gehenna's Golden Hounds

A question I found interesting, but my friends and I looked up the details and believe to have figured the answer. When casting this on a champion in a unit, are the "Sir, look out!" rolls mandatory? If not, then one would be able to kill only the champion of that unit. But, following RAW, it would seem the look out rolls are mandatory.
Because of this, a unit champion can effectively be used to spread the damage on the unit. Nasty bit of work there.

[Omnichron]

Is plague of rust not a modifier? From the description, I assume it is a permanent modifier.

It's permanent. So, the searing doom has less chances of wounding the more plague of rusts you put on the enemy.

On Warseer (*shudder*) I found a debate on the effects of plague of rust on Skullcrushers who, apparently, would have a 0+ armor save.

That must be before the new book came, they now have 1+ armor, so the 0+ problem should be solved... as for what is correct answer... not sure. Gotta check up FAQ, and I think WoC had something about 0+ armor in there from the old book.

If the enchanted blades of aiban make attacks count as "magical" with all the benefits it grants against ethereal creatures... Is it correct to assume it also triggers magic resistance?

Nope. The attacks are weapons with magical attack and armor piercing attributes. The source of attacks is from close combat, not magical spells. If the spell was bladewind however, you'd get magic resistance as it's the attacks from the spell (and in the magic phase).

It grants a scaly skin. Scaly skin is defined as a special rule... Which means it inherits the a nasty attribute: it does not stack with another scaly skin unless explicitly stated otherwise. As it doesn't explicitly state otherwise, is it correct to assume this does not work on Hydras and Dragon armor?

That is correct. It stacks with normal armor, but not with other scaly skins.

Combining this with plague of rust:
- A COK unit with plague of rust on it has a 3+ save
- Would giving it scaly skin give it a 1+ save?

Yes, you have 3+ save (permanently decreased), and add a scaly skin to get the 1+

...are the "Sir, look out!" rolls mandatory?

Yes, they are. The other troops loves their leaders so much that they will die for them, no matter what you say. I find that a bit amusing, especially with Skaven.

[Flash29]

As I'm preparing for a battle with a single Metal sorc as my Lord choice, I was going through the itty gritty details of the Lore. I bumped into a few questions and would like to double check my reasoning.


Plague of rust, the lore attribute, skullcrushers

Some sources claim that plague of rust reduces the impact of Plague of Rust. Some don't. To me it's unclear. The description clearly states the hits from the lore attribute work on the "unmodified armor save". Is plague of rust not a modifier? From the description, I assume it is a permanent modifier.

It gets more complex when taking skullcrushers. On Warseer (*shudder*) I found a debate on the effects of plague of rust on Skullcrushers who, apparently, would have a 0+ armor save. Of course, armor save is capped at 1+ AS. That doesn't seem to discourage one part of the debaters (probably chaos players) to religiously defend that plague of rust works on skullcrushers but brings their (0+ capped to) 1+ AS to 1+AS. The logic here is:
- +3 from the mount
- +3 from the chaos armor
- +1 from the shield
- -1 from plague of rust
= 1+
If they would enter combat without plague of rust, then their armor would still be capped at 1+ before armor modifiers of strength and armor piercing would apply. The effect of "plague of rust" is calculated as if it affected the character's sheet, and it isn't really a "modifier", just a permanent effect.

Personally I don't see how either logic can be valid. A skullcrusher model has a 1+ AS, total. It gets a plague of rust modifier on the model. Now the model has a 1+AS -1 AS giving it a 2+AS. Searing doom works on the unmodified armor save, which means even with 2 or 3 plagues of rust, it would still wound the crushers on a 2+.

Enchanted blades of Aiban... and magic resistance

A rather simple one to answer. If the enchanted blades of aiban make attacks count as "magical" with all the benefits it grants against ethereal creatures... Is it correct to assume it also triggers magic resistance? Would this mean that a model, in particular demons, with 5+ WS and MR(1) get a 4+ WS against attacks or missile fire from a unit with this augment?

I would believe so. But I'd like to know for sure

Glittering Robe

It grants a scaly skin. Scaly skin is defined as a special rule... Which means it inherits the a nasty attribute: it does not stack with another scaly skin unless explicitly stated otherwise. As it doesn't explicitly state otherwise, is it correct to assume this does not work on Hydras and Dragon armor?

It would work on Cold One Knights, as they are labeled "thick skinned", which simply adds an extra armor save. This could bring a 2+ AS from COKs to 0+ which is then capped to 1+ for all purposes.

Combining this with plague of rust:
- A COK unit with plague of rust on it has a 3+ save
- Would giving it scaly skin give it a 1+ save?

It would seem like "yes" might conflict with the "no" from the skullcrusher answer but the truth is that in this case, we're always talking about modifiers, not basic armor save.
Still.. this would appear a bit fishy to me. If this were correct, then I'd assume the skullcrushers to retain a 1+ AS as well.

Gehenna's Golden Hounds

A question I found interesting, but my friends and I looked up the details and believe to have figured the answer. When casting this on a champion in a unit, are the "Sir, look out!" rolls mandatory? If not, then one would be able to kill only the champion of that unit. But, following RAW, it would seem the look out rolls are mandatory.
Because of this, a unit champion can effectively be used to spread the damage on the unit. Nasty bit of work there.

-If its a modifier or not, I can't say, But I do see 2 options. Either its a modifier or a permanent change(like destroying a piece of equipment, but its a though call. the main thing here is to make a diffrence between unmodified armour saves and unmodified characteristics, after all your armour save isn't a flat stat it can be succeptible to change depending on circumstances ( sea dragon cloak, shield+ 2 handed weapon). it should however be a non-issue in play as plague of rust is usualy better on 4+,5+,6+ as with our low strength core, enough killing blow (and searing doom) to deal with 1+, 2+ armour saves.

as for the skullchrushers, the argument was silly, but now is non-existant, as skullchrushers have a 1+ as in the new book (the juggers only give +2 rather then +3)


-magic resistance only counts against damage caused by spells, magical attacks are not spells, in the least, otherwise all magic weapons and some units ( graceguard, black knights, skaven altillery,...) would also be affected. Its also my understanding that the damage must be noted in te spel, forr instance, 2d6st4 hits, from a fireball or the st 4 on every model if it moves. But not the damage caused by a okkamed unit forb instance. im not sure what the ruling is on the lore of heavens attribute ( or the new tzeech warpflame).

-scaly skn is a rule, by which you can't have the same rule multiple times (unless otherwise stated) cold one knights would benifit but as for the rule question, its a intressting one

you can only have a 1+ armour save, anything that would take you lower is ignored.
If plague of rust is a modifier then you technically still have a 1+ armour save and can't go beyond, => 2+as
if it isn't a modifier then you wouls indeed remain at a 1+ save.
again something that will very rarely pop up (you already need to cast plague of rust twice to have any effect with searing doom) but i'd think that would just be a judges call or a dice roll, to know if plague of rust is a modifier or a permanent change.
with this presented, i'd personally go towards modifier, just because it seems easier to explain


-Yes look out sirs are in fact manditory, and it can do a bit of damage although is more difficult to cast and more limited in range (though not line of sight) then searing doom

[Daeron]

Thank you both for your swift answers. A few more nitpicking:

Combining this with plague of rust:
- A COK unit with plague of rust on it has a 3+ save
- Would giving it scaly skin give it a 1+ save?

Yes, you have 3+ save (permanently decreased), and add a scaly skin to get the 1+

There is a catch here. Which rule comes first? If Plague of Rust comes first, then I'd assume you could let scaly skin pull you to 1+. But if the skin was first, then you'd be capped at 1+, and would plague of rust then bring you down to 2+?

Or is this another one those "it is determined by the player who's turn it is"?

...are the "Sir, look out!" rolls mandatory?

Yes, they are. The other troops loves their leaders so much that they will die for them, no matter what you say. I find that a bit amusing, especially with Skaven.

Heheh, that made my day.

[Omnichron]

There is a catch here. Which rule comes first? If Plague of Rust comes first, then I'd assume you could let scaly skin pull you to 1+. But if the skin was first, then you'd be capped at 1+, and would plague of rust then bring you down to 2+?

Tricky, although one is a permanent change while the other is a modifier. So, I'd go for the permanent changes to be done first and the modifiers after.

Is that correct? Not sure, but it's what seems most logical, so go for that.
If the opponent disagrees, solve it with a 4+ roll as it's much better to use the holy MOST IMPORTANT RULE

[Holt]

On the bit about Glitering Robes. I have always just assumed that the +2 from been on a Cold One is a Scaly skin save and so you would not be able to stack it, now that it has been pointed out that it is not the wording of the rule I do not see why you would not be able to add the scaly skin rule to the models and make their armour save even better. Thanks for pointing this out.

[Daeron]

On the bit about Glitering Robes. I have always just assumed that the +2 from been on a Cold One is a Scaly skin save and so you would not be able to stack it, now that it has been pointed out that it is not the wording of the rule I do not see why you would not be able to add the scaly skin rule to the models and make their armour save even better. Thanks for pointing this out.

Yeah, it's a matter of how the rule is labeled. But it makes sense, if you think about it. If CO's would have a 5+ scaly skin, wouldn't they give 4+ to the riders? 2 points for scaly skin and 1 for being mounted? Hm, the thick skinned rule instead, denotes that it just gives 1 additional armor point (I take it is a replacement for barding, the movement penalty being the M7 of the COKs).
The FAQ, in spite of fixing some things like labeling the Repeater Handbows with "Quick to Fire", doesn't relabel thick skinned to scaly skin.

If it would have 6+ scaly skin, though, one could wonder if the 5+ from metal wouldn't upgrade it to 5+, still giving a 1+ save to the COKs.
So there would be a bonus either way I believe.