Assassins in Scouting Units

[SemprusOfClarGarond]

Can we put Assassins in Shades and still use the Scout rule with them? I've been told that we can't.

[Dalamar]

Were you told why not?

[kaloomte]

I don't see why you couldn't...

[Marxesperat]

I'd imagine that would be a really good tactic as you can throw an assassin at someone really easily and early without the risk of lightly armored t3 elves not actually getting there.

[Searinox Nagharha]

well you can't actually place an Assassin in a deployed unit of Shades as you would have a Character join a unit on deployment.
but you could Hide him in the unit then reveal him when the right oppertunity arrises

[Marxesperat]

Well I'm sure that was what was meant.

[Dirty Mac]

Next comes the question about the Viability of Assassins compared to Masters.

[Dangerous Beans]

I'd like to raise the topic of how viable Assassins are compared to Masters!

In all seriousness, the way I perceive this is that the assassin in not placed upon the table during Deployment, thus it does not matter if he has the scout rule or not. He is simply revealed in one of your infantry units at the start of the turn or close combat phase; that doesn't matter if the infantry unit scouted during Deployment or not.

[Marxesperat]

Precisely just have to follow the rule of infantry unit, so shades are included. So no beasts, chariots or cavalry etc.

[lil' fisty]

Could it be useful at that point to have the shade champion upgrade for the purpose of challenges?

[Marxesperat]

Well no because a bloodshade only has a higher bs, therefore no extra attacks. I mean suppose you could get him to challenge really pathetic core champions, but at s3 and only one attack may not work as nicely as you would think. Unless your willing to either get great weapons or additional hand weapons as well as armour which then puts them to nearly 20 points a shade with the bloodshade costing 39 for no additional challenge purpose benefits.

[Dirty Mac]

Could it be useful at that point to have the shade champion upgrade for the purpose of challenges?

I don't see how, The assassin is a killer ( Well he is supposed to be) I don't ever see a reason to accept with the champ with an assassin in the unit.

[Gerner]

Could it be useful at that point to have the shade champion upgrade for the purpose of challenges?

I don't see how, The assassin is a killer ( Well he is supposed to be) I don't ever see a reason to accept with the champ with an assassin in the unit.

What if the opposing unit contains the enemy level 4 wizard and a champion. You place the assassin in b2b contact with the wizard, but now his champion declares a challenge. Now because you don't have a champion your assassin is forced to fight it out with him or move to the back.

[Marxesperat]

That's when an bloodshade would be useful for challenging but because of the sheer lack of challenge material you wouldn't use it to challenge anything that the assassin wouldn't smear without breaking a sweat, and even then only if they declare because you'd want the extra attacks to kill the unit (assuming you had an additional hand weapon).

[Dirty Mac]

Could it be useful at that point to have the shade champion upgrade for the purpose of challenges?

I don't see how, The assassin is a killer ( Well he is supposed to be) I don't ever see a reason to accept with the champ with an assassin in the unit.

What if the opposing unit contains the enemy level 4 wizard and a champion. You place the assassin in b2b contact with the wizard, but now his champion declares a challenge. Now because you don't have a champion your assassin is forced to fight it out with him or move to the back.

How often would this happen though, really?

[Searinox Nagharha]

More often then you think. Most (if not all) Mage bunkers contain a unit champion.
Its a simple safety lock. makes sure that when you get that assassin in he can place the hurt where it needs to go.

The question remainig tho, what does he bring over a master?

[Thraundil]

IF you use a shade unit to transport your assassin into close combat on turn 2, then you will for sure want the shade unit with a champion, or your entire tactic falls to the floor. However, several very big "ifs" persist.

1) The assassin is esentially dead meat after you carry out your task. As is his unit. They charge into a wizard bunker, they have no armour and T3. Of course they will die, even if the opponent might only be hitting on 5s.

2) If you scout a unit of shades right in front of the enemy wizard bunker. What smart player will not blast this unit to smithereens with magic missiles, or simply move a blocking unit up to block the charge, just to be safe? You either must make the shade unit big enough to withstand 2d6 magic missiles (and this makes it even more of a juicy target!) or you must dispel his magic missile, thus risking allowing his doom spell on turn 1. And then there is still the concern of charge blocks.


The advantage over the master is his ability to get into combat on turn 2... But a master in a dark rider/warlock unit has the same advantage. He will charge on turn 2, but is more resilient to both missile fire and magic missiles... Honestly, with the new army book, I can never see a justification for including an assassin. Which is a shame, because I really like the idea behind them. They are just incredibly lackluster as is!

[marcopollo]

Back in 6/7th ed assassins were great because you could wipe out the front rank of a unit and not be attacked back. But with step-up in 8th that is no longer a viable option. You will be attacked back. This is the same problem that a Dhag must deal with. The safest place for either the DHag is in a challenge where the enemy can't attack back. But your opponent is surely going to know that and will either refuse and you send a model to the back, and then kill off the assassin/Dhag and then return to the front ranks.

Resiliency is the name of the game these days. That is why unit sizes got bigger, MSU is not as viable as it once was, and ...

... that is why assassins are poor choices now. Too bad really, I liked the renbane assassin.

[Dalamar]

Theres still use for assassins.
They are still character killers. Most rnf will be hitting them on 5s so a lot of people won't want to waste their attacks.

They hit nearly everything on 3+ and never lose asf rerolls.
Manbane ensures easy wounding.
Your opponent doesn't know about them unit you reveal one.

These are the advantages they have over masters.
An assassin with manbane and obsidian blade is almost guaranteed to kill any 2 wound character on reveal. Thats vast majority of bsbs and loss of a bsb can cripple some armies (while a master has more of a 50/50 chance for the same feat.

Assassins' job is fairly specific and less universal than masters' but they still have their place.


Unlike the fleetmaster...

[Datalink7]

Theres still use for assassins.
They are still character killers. Most rnf will be hitting them on 5s so a lot of people won't want to waste their attacks.

They hit nearly everything on 3+ and never lose asf rerolls.
Manbane ensures easy wounding.
Your opponent doesn't know about them unit you reveal one.

These are the advantages they have over masters.
An assassin with manbane and obsidian blade is almost guaranteed to kill any 2 wound character on reveal. Thats vast majority of bsbs and loss of a bsb can cripple some armies (while a master has more of a 50/50 chance for the same feat.

Assassins' job is fairly specific and less universal than masters' but they still have their place.


Unlike the fleetmaster...

I agree with this. I've stuck an Assassin with Obsidian Blade and Manbane in my latest list (first test this Sunday). He's also good against 1+ armor save empire lists. Killing 2-3 knights right off the bat can swing things your way.

Maybe still not the optimal choice, but certainly not horrible (like the fleetmaster )

[Dragon9]

The best option is not to challenge. Make way to the enemy character in the front rank and direct the assassins attacks against that character until dead. if you don't challenge, they can't refuse and hide in the back. The assassin's I should be more than enough to make sure they go first.

[marcopollo]

But an assassin with posions and expensive blade is pushing 170 pts. That's alot of different trade-offs. And they will surely die to return attacks. The cost to make them effective is very high.

[Datalink7]

But an assassin with posions and expensive blade is pushing 170 pts. That's alot of different trade-offs. And they will surely die to return attacks. The cost to make them effective is very high.

Obsidian Blade and Manbane runs you 160 points. So same cost as Kharibdyss. Kharibdyss is probably a better use of your points, but depending on your opponent the Assassin could end up more useful. Against a empire list, for instance, the assassin is much more likely to reach combat. There is also the added psychological benefit.

You're right, it is expensive. And there are better things in general to do with the points. But I think it is far from a waste of points.

[Dirty Mac]

More often then you think. Most (if not all) Mage bunkers contain a unit champion.
Its a simple safety lock. makes sure that when you get that assassin in he can place the hurt where it needs to go.

The question remainig tho, what does he bring over a master?

What I meant was, How often does a single unit of shades end up fighting an enemy mage bunker?
If the bunker is really big why did you charge it? if it is small, then you might possibly destroy the unit or break it in combat, so it wouldn't matter if the champ challenged i guess, since overkill from the assassin would greatly tip the combat in your favour.

I find it unlikely that the bunker would charge you, considering that shades are usually deployed in the backfields, and it would really pull the bunker out of position just to charge a unit of shades.

If it was a multi charge surely you would have another champ or character in the comboing unit, considering you have decided to charge the enemy mage bunker I think you would probably have accounted for this and they could accept the challenge instead.

Perhaps I should have written it at the time, Instead of just thinking it.

[Datalink7]

More often then you think. Most (if not all) Mage bunkers contain a unit champion.
Its a simple safety lock. makes sure that when you get that assassin in he can place the hurt where it needs to go.

The question remainig tho, what does he bring over a master?

What I meant was, How often does a single unit of shades end up fighting an enemy mage bunker?
If the bunker is really big why did you charge it? if it is small, then you might possibly destroy the unit or break it in combat, so it wouldn't matter if the champ challenged i guess, since overkill from the assassin would greatly tip the combat in your favour.

I find it unlikely that the bunker would charge you, considering that shades are usually deployed in the backfields, and it would really pull the bunker out of position just to charge a unit of shades.

If it was a multi charge surely you would have another champ or character in the comboing unit, considering you have decided to charge the enemy mage bunker I think you would probably have accounted for this and they could accept the challenge instead.

Perhaps I should have written it at the time, Instead of just thinking it.

Well the reason to charge it is to try an assassinate a wizard. This being if you have an assassin with the shades. It could be worth the sacrifice of the whole unit, depending on the circumstances.