Destroyer questions

[Haagrum]

I didn't see an answer to these questions in the Druchii FAQ, so I thought I'd put them up for debate.

From our army book, page 53:
Destroyer
Magic Weapon. <snip>

"...if Malekith scores one or more hits against a model with any magic items, roll a D6: on a 4+, one randomly determined magic item is immediately destroyed and cannot be used further in this game. Do not include magic items that are mounts, magic items that contain bound spells that miscast earlier in the game, or any magic items labelled as 'one use only' that have been used." <snip>

With that in mind, here are my questions. Ultimately, I believe the answers depend on the effect of the word "immediately" above, but would like to know what others think.

Short version: When does Destroyer trigger, and can this affect To Wound/armour save/ward save rolls?

Long version: Consider the following scenarios.

1. Malekith is fighting another opponent with ASF (or has lost ASF for some reason and is fighting at the same Initiative step as his opponent). His opponent is armed with a magic weapon - for argument's sake, let's say it's a High Elf Prince with the Ogre Blade. There are no additional modifiers in effect. Malekith hits his opponent at least once, and is struck at least once in return. Destroyer triggers and its effect destroys the Ogre Blade.

When the High Elf Prince rolls to wound, are the hits resolved at S6 or S4? Similarly, if/when at least one roll to wound is successful for the soon-to-be-dead traitorous Asur Prince with a now-destroyed magic weapon, does Malekith's Armour of Midnight grant him a 2+ ward save?

2. Same scenario as above, but there is a standard bearer next to the Prince carrying the Banner of No Skill Vs Daemons the World Dragon. No challenges have been issued. Malekith allocates one attack to the standard bearer and hits. Destroyer triggers and destroys the Banner.

Do the Prince or the standard bearer receive a 2++ ward against the wound(s) inflicted by Destroyer?

3. Same scenario as #1 above, but the weapon in question is the Sword of Anti-Heroes. The Prince gets an extra Attack for being in base contact with Malekith, and then the Sword of Anti-Heroes is destroyed. Does the Prince's hit resolve at +1 Strength?

4. Same scenario as #1 above, but the opponent is a Chaos Lord with the Filth Mace (Poisoned Attacks) and the Helm of Many Eyes. The Chaos Lord rolls one 6 on his rolls to hit. Destroyer takes out the Filth Mace. Is the hit still a Poisoned Attack which automatically causes a wound, subject to armour and ward saves?

My answers would be as follows:
#1 - Hits are Strength 4; 2++ save from Armour of Midnight works
#2 - No ward saves are allowed by Banner of the World Dragon
#3 - Hits are Strength 4 (the number of hits is unaffected); 2++ save from Armour of Midnight works
#4 - The Poisoned Attack automatically causes a wound; 2++ save from Armour of Midnight works

I believe this resolves differently to Kouran's armour - in that case, there's no question of the hit having already landed, and even if the Armour of Grief kills the attacking model, it doesn't affect the hit itself. However, depending on your interpretation of when Destroyer triggers, it potentially changes the situation between when a model rolls to hit, and when the model rolls to wound.

The way I see it, there are two possible interpretations - that Destroyer's effect is resolved immediately after Malekith scores at least one hit on a model carrying a magic item, or that you resolve Destroyer's effect after all rolls to wound and to save at that Initiative step have been completed (typically, the ASF stage).

The first interpretation seems to make more sense, at least from a RAW perspective (and, to be honest, it makes Malekith half-decent). Destroyer's effect occurs "if Malekith scores one or more hits against a model with any magic items". If a 4+ is rolled, "one randomly determined magic item is immediately destroyed". There are no words suggesting that this be delayed until after all of Malekith's attacks have been fully resolved. Indeed, the last effect of Destroyer triggers against wizards who suffer one or more unsaved wounds from Destroyer. Applying that ruling, Destroyer could affect the Strength (or other properties) of an incoming attack and Malekith's armour and ward saves, because Destroyer renders a magic item defunct before its bonuses are applied to resolve the roll to wound (and by extension, it is no longer a magic item and cannot confer a ward save or prevent the Armour of Midnight from granting a 2++ ward). I consider that scenario #4 is a different case - the Poisoned Attacks rule applied when the 6 to hit was rolled, and happened simultaneously with Malekith's attacks, so it does not matter that the Filth Mace no longer has any in-game effect, but Malekith will get a 2++ against that attack thanks to the Armour of Midnight because it's now a non-magical attack.

The alternate explanation is more of a RAI/conceptual approach. Attacks which have already been made, and which have already struck the opponent, should not be modified by an effect which triggers after the successful roll to hit has been made. Furthermore, they don't suddenly become non-magical attacks halfway through resolution. It does not matter that the item is "immediately destroyed" - it does not change the Strength of a hit, or allow/prevent saves to be taken against the attack which could not have been made beforehand. This interpretation is weaker because there's no rule (that I know of) which "locks in" the attributes of an attack before each step is taken in determining whether an attack causes a wound. Furthermore, the Blasted Standard in the WOC book modifies the Strength of incoming missile attacks after they have hit the unit carrying that banner. In fairness, that item does expressly state that you roll to affect the Strength of the hit "immediately before rolling To Wound", and could be argued that if Destroyer was intended to work as per the first interpretation, it would have said something similar, but it does not.

Any thoughts? Comments? Alternate interpretations on the above four scenarios?

[Calisson]

The scenario you describe is made of events that technically are resolved at the same "initiative" time.
Note that to hit, to wound and armour save all happen at same time, the same "initiative" time:
BRB p.51 "Where models have the same Initiative, their attacks are made simultaneously". Also, read the comment in italics in the column on the left margin, which tells to resolve one side, then resolve the other side as if no casualty had been caused.

BRB p.10 Sequencing.
"...occasionally you'll find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time...
When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first,
then the player whose turn it is chooses the order."

So the answer is:
For all scenarios, the player whose turn it is chooses the order of the hits, and all hits are resolved "as if" the opponent was not killed.

[Haagrum]

The scenario you describe is made of events that technically are resolved at the same "initiative" time.
Note that to hit, to wound and armour save all happen at same time, the same "initiative" time:
BRB p.51 "Where models have the same Initiative, their attacks are made simultaneously". Also, read the comment in italics in the column on the left margin, which tells to resolve one side, then resolve the other side as if no casualty had been caused.

BRB p.10 Sequencing.
"...occasionally you'll find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time...
When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first,
then the player whose turn it is chooses the order."

So the answer is:
For all scenarios, the player whose turn it is chooses the order of the hits, and all hits are resolved "as if" the opponent was not killed.

I appreciate the response, Calisson, but it begs the question of precisely when the Destroyer rule resolves. This is unlike the scenario in italics on the side of the page, which makes a point about simultaneous attacks and which is reasonably clear. At the heart of the question is whether rolls to hit, then to wound, and then rolls to save against wounds occur simultaneously within the same Initiative step, or whether they occur in sequence within that Initiative step (and can be affected by other rules which trigger during that sequence).

If it's the former, Destroyer only effectively triggers after Malekith's attacks are all resolved. If it's the latter, Destroyer triggers after all models have rolled to hit in the same Initiative step and is capable of removing the effects of magical weapons from the equation before rolls to wound are made.

[Dalamar]

This is one of those ambiguous situations where GW expects you to come to an amicable resolution with your opponent. Here's what I'd suggest.

1. High Elf Prince resolves all of his attacks including all magical bonuses as those happen simultaneously with Destroyer attacks. This would mean hit, wound and armor adjustment as per magic weapon. In case Destroyer breaks a protective item, that item would not be present to save against the Destroyer attacks. In case Destroyer breaks the weapon, it is destroyed immediately but the attacks have already been made with it, so this turn is unaffected.

2. No, since saves are essentially after hits and wounds, the banner is already long gone when it comes to the save stage.

3. Yes, The attacks have been made. Imagine that all bonuses from a magic weapon take effect as soon as weapon connects with target and can't be negated anymore after that point.

4. Yes, any 6s to hit would keep their poison ability (and any other benefit Filth Mace might have)

[Calisson]

I disagree that "saves are essentially after hits and wounds". Hit, saves & wounds are simultaneous. Their "effect", if any, can be sequenced at will.
The only way to divide further this single I step is "sequencing", i.e. decision by the player whose turn it is about which effect comes first.

Only restrictions that I am aware:
- decision to divide attacks between several targets must be made before any dice is rolled (I understand that decision can be postponed until the first roll for that very model is made).
- death is postponed at the end of that Initiative step.

In all the scenarios described above, the player whose turn it is choses the order of the hits. It doesn't matter if one effect is linked with hitting and the other is linked with wounding, it is still an effect in the same I step.

In the DE player's turn, of course, Malekith will first allocate his hits.
Then hits may have effects (destroying a magic item) which can be resolved before any wound and save is rolled. It may seem not logical but that's the rule. Of course, you could decide to house-rule differently for the sake of logics.
If one of the effect reduces the opponent's number of hits, then the opponent strikes with less hits. Despite having same initiative & ASF.

Of course, in the HE's turn, all effects from Malekith's side would take effect last within the I step.


Let's imagine a silly scenario,
in case of Malekith duelling against Malekith, the player whose turn it is may well destroy the opponent's Destroyer before it has a chance to work.

[Haagrum]

This is one of those ambiguous situations where GW expects you to come to an amicable resolution with your opponent.

Dang... this was pretty much my conclusion, but was looking for a better or more complete analysis. I have no issue with doing exactly that, but it's fertile ground for differing and reasonable opinions.

I disagree that "saves are essentially after hits and wounds". Hit, saves & wounds are simultaneous. Their "effect", if any, can be sequenced at will.
The only way to divide further this single I step is "sequencing", i.e. decision by the player whose turn it is about which effect comes first.

If this is the case, then why does Destroyer trigger an effect at two different points in time (i.e. "immediately" destroying an item after hitting, and taking magic levels off a Wizard wounded by Destroyer)? Further to that, if hits, wounds and saves are simultaneous, why is the "destroy item" effect expressed as occurring "immediately" and the "lose magic levels" effect expressed as only occurring after saves are failed and wounds are inflicted?

I'm not saying that you're wrong or that I'm right, Calisson. I'm interested in teasing out the operation of the rules and Destroyer's effects.

My understanding of the sequencing rules would mean that the election of the order of effects would be apposite for things like Impact Hits and Avert Your Gaze! when a Bloodwrack Shrine charges (both happen before challenges in the Close Combat phase). If there is a timing issue for Destroyer's "destroy item" effect, it's immediately after Malekith has rolled to hit, which makes it unusual. It's impossible to know whether it will occur until after you've rolled to hit.

...and with that in mind, I will probably be referring to Destroyer as Schrödinger's Sword from now on.

[Dragon9]

It's already sequenced in the rules. Step 1) roll to hit. Step 2) roll to wound (if needed). Step 3) Roll armor saves (if needed). Step 4) Roll ward saves (if needed).

So with Destroyer, after the hit, you roll the D6 and if 4+ you immediately destroy the item. Then you roll to wound, and if wounded and the target is a caster, then they lose levels, etc. if things are happening simultaneously due to ASF or same Init, etc. then technically the hits happen at the same time. So if you happen to roll first instead of both rolling at the same time, and destroyer makes your opponents magic weapon go poof, he still has it on the to hit rolls so any bonuses to hit would still be granted, but then it goes poof. He'd still get to wound, but would have no bonuses to do so if the item conveyed such a thing, etc. Same with the later steps (armor, ward).

[Thraundil]

Well. Wording on the destroyer says immediately, so one could argue that when you hit, but before any "to wounds" are rolled, you must make the destroy roll.

However. There is no limbo where malekith has hit the elf prince with his sword, and they just stand there hanging out waiting to determine if that hit was actually a wounding one. Let me see if I can explain this the way I think it works.

The "to wound" roll is a check to see whether the attack that just hit also wounded, past tense. The "to wound" roll is an inherent property of the succesful hit. The armor or ward save is then furthermore applied in the same backwards fashion to see whether the succesful hit, which wounded, was somehow saved by armor or wards. All this happens in one go.

Some examples. Prince has a charmed shield. Malekith somehow only hits him once. Charmed shield discounts hits at 2+, but malekith gets to immediately roll a dice to see if he can destroy the item. How is this figured out now? My answer: since charmed shield gets to discount the first hit, a die is rolled. On 2+, there was no hit in the first place, preventing destroyer from taking effect.

In your examples:

1: Prince has ogre blade. He and malekith strike each other 100% simultaneously, and no matter what the result of destroyer is, malekith was struck with an ogre blade. The hits are S6, and the armor save penalty of -3 AND the 2++ ward against magic hits work for Malekith.

2: Malekith strikes the standard bearer and hits. As above, the wounds take thier source from hits by a magic weapon, so the 2++ save persists. Afterwards, the banner could be destroyed.

3: As scenario 1.

4: Yes, 6's are still automatic wounds.


The way I read destroyers rules is that the magic item can be destroyed before an opponent who does NOT have ASF gets the chance to strike back. It can, however, not destroy item X, when item X strikes at the exact same time.


Mind you, this is not at all based on any written rules. This is purely how I would play it out. I could be wrong and there is a sound ruling on this somewhere.

[Calisson]

I introduced the possibility of duplicating the unique Malekith and his unique gear.
Haagrum has managed to think outside the box Shrödinger's cat , which soul has invested Malekith's sword (do cats have 7 lives?).
Now Thraundil introduces the notion that simultaneity could be less than 100%.

What next?

Amazing D.net!

[Haagrum]

I introduced the possibility of duplicating the unique Malekith and his unique gear.
Haagrum has managed to think outside the box Shrödinger's cat , which soul has invested Malekith's sword (do cats have 7 lives?).
Now Thraundil introduces the notion that simultaneity could be less than 100%.

What next?

Amazing D.net!

The word "quantum" can't be too far off being used...

[MexicanNinja]

Funny situation. This exact thing came up in my last game of the last tournament I was in. I had Malekith fighting a HE character. Since the rule says after you make a successful hit, you would make a roll to try and destroy a random item. In the case of it being a weapon, the weapon loses any bonuses it may have had.

I know some of you say it's ambiguous;however, the rolls says if you make a successful hit and not a wound.

I know I haven't ran into any issues with this yet, so it's not much of a big deal in my gaming community.

[MexicanNinja]

Well. Wording on the destroyer says immediately, so one could argue that when you hit, but before any "to wounds" are rolled, you must make the destroy roll.

However. There is no limbo where malekith has hit the elf prince with his sword, and they just stand there hanging out waiting to determine if that hit was actually a wounding one. Let me see if I can explain this the way I think it works.

The "to wound" roll is a check to see whether the attack that just hit also wounded, past tense. The "to wound" roll is an inherent property of the succesful hit. The armor or ward save is then furthermore applied in the same backwards fashion to see whether the succesful hit, which wounded, was somehow saved by armor or wards. All this happens in one go.

Some examples. Prince has a charmed shield. Malekith somehow only hits him once. Charmed shield discounts hits at 2+, but malekith gets to immediately roll a dice to see if he can destroy the item. How is this figured out now? My answer: since charmed shield gets to discount the first hit, a die is rolled. On 2+, there was no hit in the first place, preventing destroyer from taking effect.

In your examples:

1: Prince has ogre blade. He and malekith strike each other 100% simultaneously, and no matter what the result of destroyer is, malekith was struck with an ogre blade. The hits are S6, and the armor save penalty of -3 AND the 2++ ward against magic hits work for Malekith.

2: Malekith strikes the standard bearer and hits. As above, the wounds take thier source from hits by a magic weapon, so the 2++ save persists. Afterwards, the banner could be destroyed.

3: As scenario 1.

4: Yes, 6's are still automatic wounds.


The way I read destroyers rules is that the magic item can be destroyed before an opponent who does NOT have ASF gets the chance to strike back. It can, however, not destroy item X, when item X strikes at the exact same time.


Mind you, this is not at all based on any written rules. This is purely how I would play it out. I could be wrong and there is a sound ruling on this somewhere.

I disagree 100% with your scenario 1. The roll is made after the hit roll. This is done before rolling to wound. The HE loses the S bonus to wound. Just because the hit rolls are made simultaneously doesn't mean the wound rolls are. ASF states that the models strike simultaneously not that they wound simultaneously.

Again, I complete disagree with your logic on the banner. The banner is destroyed prior to being wounded, the units immediately loses the 2+ save.

For a third time I have to disagree, again. I don't have the DE army book in front of me but I am pretty sure it says 1 or more hits not just 1 hit. If you score 3 hits then the charmed shield negates 1 of them and the other 2 get through. This would still allow a roll to see if another magic item is destroyed (since the charmed shield's one use has been used to deny 1 of the hits).

Ok, for the 4th scenario, this is the tricky one. I would go with the ruling that the 6's count as wounds.

I don't know how you read the rule the way you did for opponents not having ASF. No where in the rules does it mention anything about ASF. If you score hits with Malekith then you roll before the wound rolls. It doesn't matter if the opponent has ASF or not. Again, the rule for ASF states they strike simultaneously not that they wound simultaneously.

[Haagrum]

Funny situation. This exact thing came up in my last game of the last tournament I was in. I had Malekith fighting a HE character. Since the rule says after you make a successful hit, you would make a roll to try and destroy a random item. In the case of it being a weapon, the weapon loses any bonuses it may have had.

I know some of you say it's ambiguous;however, the rolls says if you make a successful hit and not a wound.

I know I haven't ran into any issues with this yet, so it's not much of a big deal in my gaming community.

This situation is pure RAW. Conceptually, it's a bit odd to claim that a hit, a wound and an armour save would happen in a staggered order, given that all of the steps that determine whether an attack causes a wound do not happen on a delayed timer.

Of course, the conceptual argument runs the other way as well for models with multiple attacks. Clearly, Malekith can't hit someone four times simultaneously, but that's what the game rules allow.

I think Dalamar has the wiser answer if there's a dispute between players. However, reasonable minds may differ on the resolution.