Shooting at the Cauldron

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Cameron77
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Shooting at the Cauldron

Post by Cameron77 »

The Cauldron of Blood has been putting a hurting on our group as of late. But the rules are rather vague, so I was wondering if anyone could provide me rulings using rule references instead of opinions?

Here's what confuses me:

-> If a hag BSB is riding a cauldron, and she dies, is the cauldron (her mount) removed? Our DE players say no, because crew is left. I see it as any other mount, and since it's not a monster, it should go.

-> If I direct attacks in close combat at the cauldron, I use the crew's stats, with the cauldron's toughness, not the hags?

-> Can the cauldron be singled out from the unit with regular shooting attacks? I assume not, as silly as that is to imagine. The rules on page 99 of the brb say the different troop types means no look out sir, and the controlling player selects which models are hit from regular shooting. With there being a crapload of witch elves to pick from, the cauldron should be safe for a long while. Is this correct?
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Re: Shooting at the Cauldron

Post by Dyvim tvar »

It's not a monster but it is a chariot, and a chariot mount is not removed when a character riding it dies. (Rule book p 104)

Fight against crew WS (not Hag's) and the Cauldron's T. (Rule book pp. 86, 104 & 105)

Cauldron in a unit generally will not be hit by regular shooting unless the Dark Elf character allocates a hit to the Cauldron (rule book p 99)
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Re: Shooting at the Cauldron

Post by Executioner_of_khaine »

I believe the Cauldron can be picked out of the unit and shot at conttinuously till dead. Reading the rules on page 99 you stated, the cauldron and the Witch Elves are not the same troop type therefore CAN be picked out.

Did I miss something?
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Re: Shooting at the Cauldron

Post by Thraundil »

Executioner_of_khaine wrote:I believe the Cauldron can be picked out of the unit and shot at conttinuously till dead. Reading the rules on page 99 you stated, the cauldron and the Witch Elves are not the same troop type therefore CAN be picked out.

Did I miss something?



If a character of a different troop type than the unit joins a unit, the owning player (aka the dark elf) chooses who takes the hits. Usually rank and file models.
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.
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Re: Shooting at the Cauldron

Post by Executioner_of_khaine »

Thraundil wrote:

If a character of a different troop type than the unit joins a unit, the owning player (aka the dark elf) chooses who takes the hits. Usually rank and file models.


Reference Please?
I believe the rule says "controlling" and not owning, but I cannot find that rule, even though I have heard it quoted. If they were both of the Infantry type, you would be correct though.

Being that these are different troop types I don't think it matters here anyway.
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Re: Shooting at the Cauldron

Post by Thraundil »

Executioner_of_khaine wrote:
Thraundil wrote:

If a character of a different troop type than the unit joins a unit, the owning player (aka the dark elf) chooses who takes the hits. Usually rank and file models.


Reference Please?
I believe the rule says "controlling" and not owning, but I cannot find that rule, even though I have heard it quoted. If they were both of the Infantry type, you would be correct though.

Being that these are different troop types I don't think it matters here anyway.


BRB page 99.

"If there are fewer than five rank-and-fil e models
left in the unit (or the character is of a different
troop type) there is a chance that any characters
in the unit could be hit — the controlling player
decides who is hit, but must allocate one hit on
each model before he can add a second hit on a
model; he must allocate two hits on each model
before he can allocate a third, and so on. "

It does indeed say controlling player, not owning player. But "controlling player" must refer to the player who controls the unit who has been hit. Otherwise it would have said the shooting player. There is room for analysis here, but I am pretty confident on this one. Everybody in my local gaming environment plays it like this. If you can pick out a character with shots, there would be very little reason to put a character on a mount inside infantry to protect him from bolt thrower single shots for example.
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.
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Re: Shooting at the Cauldron

Post by Executioner_of_khaine »

I was reading it as you were posting , I missed the part in parenthesis about different troop types.

Still have an issue with who is the controlling player. I posted a separate question bout it
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Re: Shooting at the Cauldron

Post by Ilderoth »

I have a different question that is relevant here. What happens if the death hag gets killed by a cannon ball (but the COB survives)? One might argue that the COB is no longer a character and so you might argue that p. 99 no longer applies and that even ballistic skill based shooting van pick out the COB from the unit (which is impossible if the hag is alive because of the aforementioned argument).

Then again, my suggestion would be this. The Will of the Gods Rule allows the COB to join and leave units (but is otherwise not treated as a character). But if the COB can join and leave units as if it were a character, than I would argue that it also gets all the rules that are part of a character joining and leaving a unit as well as all the rules following from a character joining and leaving a unit. One of the rules following the act of joining a unit is the "Combined Units" rule on p. 99. And this rule allows me, as the controlling player, to allocate hits, and so to protect my COB from ballistic skill based shooting (as long as I have a sufficient numer of witch elves...). Is this correct?
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Re: Shooting at the Cauldron

Post by Dalamar »

You are correct. Hag or no hag, cauldron (or bloodwrack shrine) can't be picked out of the unit by BS shooting. Regular rules for hit allocation apply.
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Re: Shooting at the Cauldron

Post by Ilderoth »

Thanks! And does the same logic apply to magic missiles? I always assumed it does, but after re-reading various parts regarding magic missiles I cannot find anything about the way hits from magic missiles should be allocated to a combined unit. Does the allocation of magic missiles follow the rules for normal shooting (such as BS-based shooting) at combined units, as explained on page 99?
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Re: Shooting at the Cauldron

Post by Daeron »

As far as I know, magic missile hits are distributed like shooting hits, and so follow the same rules. Unfortunately, I don't have the exact rule quote at hand.
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Ilderoth
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Re: Shooting at the Cauldron

Post by Ilderoth »

Hi Daeron,

I also always assumed that magic missile hits are distributed like shooting hits. But I can't find it anywhere in the rules book :(
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Re: Shooting at the Cauldron

Post by Thraundil »

Magic missiles inflict "hits". I cant find it specifically anywhere, either, but I can only assume that "hits" are allocated as per shooting attacks. For example, a thunderstomp also inflicts a number of "hits", and those cant be allocated either. I think a good rule of thumb is unless specifically stated such as for lore of death sniper spells, nothing that just inflicts general "hits" can ever pick out a character in a unit. Only templates, cannonfire and sniper spells can do this.

Edit: scratch that! It says on page 36 of the BRB. "Many spells inflict hits or wounds on your enemies — you can find out how to resolve these on page 40 of the Shooting Phase. "

So yeah. Magic missiles hits are distributed as shooting hits.
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.
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Re: Shooting at the Cauldron

Post by Ilderoth »

Great! Thanks for the help :P
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