DoD vs SiN

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IcemanDraich
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DoD vs SiN

Post by IcemanDraich »

Do SoS Dance of Death remove the Strength in Numbers of Skavens? I think the answer is no but would be great if i'm wrong. Slaves are stubborn ld 10 with just 4 ranks (if into the bubble) damned slaves.
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Lord Drakon
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Re: DoD vs SiN

Post by Lord Drakon »

Yes, they remove it !
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Re: DoD vs SiN

Post by Vulcan »

DoD removes rank bonuses. SiN uses rank bonuses as a bonus to leadership. So yes, DoD removes the SiN bonus.

Expect experienced Skaven players to throw everything they can at the Sisters to keep them out of combat with a block. Take advantage of it.
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Re: DoD vs SiN

Post by IcemanDraich »

I've read many post and the rules per se. And my final assumption is that you both are wrong.

First of all:
DoD specifically state: "the chosen unit don't add rank bonus TO combat resolution"

It's pretty simple for me, they still are a ranked unit so still stubborn if they have more ranks than you but you negate the bonus to combat res because gladiator fight that way, they turn around you and slaughter you from the back it's in fact write wrong because they put a malus on the enemy while that rule should be a bonus for the sisters of enemy ranks +3 but was maybe hard to write.

That's why they are gladiators, they don't care if the enemy is one or a thousand, they aren't scared by their number.

Strenght in number don't say anything about combat resolution they don't care of combat res, skaven will always lose their fight because they are not trained to fight well but only to overnumber the enemies and while they are more than the enemy they think they are stronger and can win.

Skavens add their rank bonus to leadership. It's pretty clear while they are many they are strong.

To go deeply, skavens won't lose strenght in number while flanked by a 100 warriors, they will lose the stubborn rule but not their resolution to keep fighting so they still got their ld10 but in that case that will be affected by the combat resolution score. I dunno if that's correct but that would be logical.

So the only way that DoD should be able to trump Strenght in Numbers would be if DoD would say: "enemy lose their ranks or their ranks is = 0".

Moreso i think that:
DoD is made to let the Sisters work as a unit of ten, they are a rare choice so can't be horded. That rule make up for their lack of defences into open areas and to let them win combats because they really know how to fight enemies from every side more like an arena match, a skirmish and not as a standard combat.

While SiN is made to let skavens to act outside the general bubble while they are many.

Maybe i'm wrong but don't you agree with me that:

A: sisters should be able to remove stubborn derived by ranks "A unit that fight SoS it's considered as they were unranked for the purpose of ...bla bla"
B: Skavens SiN should state "Skaven Ld is increased by one every 5 models they posses beyond five, if they are disrupted they lose that ability"
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Re: DoD vs SiN

Post by Amboadine »

What the rules say and how you think they should play are very different.
This is a constant in WH, RAW ≠ RAI.

As I however am nowhere near my books I will patiently await the RAW king that is Calisson, to see what he makes of it.
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Re: DoD vs SiN

Post by Lord Drakon »

Dance of Doom AB : that unit receives no combat result bonus for extra ranks this turn

My understanding is that Skaven units lose SiN when they lose their rank bonus, so in normal cases when flanked, but I don't have the Skaven AB myself. The general understanding of all players so far is that it does negate SiN, but maybe you are right ! Can you post a quote of the SiN rule ?
IcemanDraich
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Re: DoD vs SiN

Post by IcemanDraich »

SiN state: "All unit of Skavens add their current rank bonus to their Leadership value for any leadership-based test"

Now i think the fact is that "Rank Bonus" don't exist as a statement.
Rank Bonus come into play for combat resolution and is called "bonus for extra rank" but that is a calculation base on my ranks vs your ranks just into close combat.

"Bonus for extra ranks" can't be higher than 3.

SiN seems to be faqued to add no more than 3 too.

I think that the fact is that Skaven got an old book.

Maybe RAI would mean that "rank bonus" is how many ranks you have - the opponent ranks and if you are not engaged opponent ranks are 0.

But is really a fight of RAW vs RAI.
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Re: DoD vs SiN

Post by Daeron »

As I understand DOD, it doesn't remove steadfast even, but only plays to the combat resolution.
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IcemanDraich
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Re: DoD vs SiN

Post by IcemanDraich »

Nope fore sure DoD don't remove steadfast

I was simply speaking hypotetically, for elves, DE particularry removing steadfast most of the time is hard, flanking with ranked unit is pretty hard too.
We got many nice unit that shine in little wide groups and kill really well but at the resolution enemy is always steadfast, that's why many players find shroud of despair a great spell or Doom and Darkness or Snipe from Death
or CoB or Shrine of Slaughter,

If Systers would remove steadfast from ranks we'll see them more on the field as an alternative to the magic or bigger blocks.

That's imho, for sure we could start to run Dark Riders into units of 15 (300 points) that is the same investment of points of a CoB BsB, to break steadfast? Don't sound as a great investment, while instead 150 points for 10 SoS would be great if they could remove steadfast even with only one of them alive.
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Re: DoD vs SiN

Post by Vulcan »

Unfortunately, only one thing removes steadfast.

More ranks. That's it.
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Re: DoD vs SiN

Post by Eldarwonderland »

In my experience, just plough 2x7 sisters + hag into the unit and kill it :)
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Re: DoD vs SiN

Post by DarkSky »

Lord Drakon wrote:Dance of Doom AB : that unit receives no combat result bonus for extra ranks this turn

My understanding is that Skaven units lose SiN when they lose their rank bonus, so in normal cases when flanked, but I don't have the Skaven AB myself. The general understanding of all players so far is that it does negate SiN, but maybe you are right ! Can you post a quote of the SiN rule ?


In my opinion it's a coin toss.

One the one hand the rule for Sisters says: "That unit receives no combat result bonus for extra ranks". Which limits the application to the combat result calculation only.
On the other hand the FAQ for Skaven explicitely says:
Q: "Does a disrupted unit with the Strength In Numbers special rule get to add its rank bonus to its Leadership? (p33)"
A: No
So the rank bonus is ruled as one characteristic, applicable to more than just combat resolution and therefore also changeable by more things (flanking here, Dance of Doom maybe as well).

Again it would have been MUCH easier, if the Dark Elves rulebook just used concepts already established in the rulebook. The rule could have been: "Treat that unit as disrupted, and models in that unit cannot make…"
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