Spearmen Open for Business

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Spearmen Open for Business

Post by Langmann »

I need ideas for upgrades/special rules for spearmen. It must not be anything majorly fantastic and CAN be fights in three ranks.

Thank you.
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Post by Nameless one »

Sorry I do not get it. Has this something to do with the conversation DA had with Gav?

If so you want them to fight in three ranks AND an additional rule?
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Post by Langmann »

No, fights in three ranks can be a special rule idea you would like spearmen to have.

You can also make up another rule.
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Post by /\\//\ »

Spearmen spears are armour piercing.

Fight with an extra rank.

I don't think they should really have any major special rules. Just enough to make them as good as Corsairs. They are only normal Spearmen after all!

I do however think that we should change Spearmen so as to be able to have them as a useful separate unit aswell as the Cityguard formation. Othewise GW will have to change their box designs for the Dark Elf regiment and I dout they will do this.
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Post by Langmann »

Armour piercing doesn't do much that fights in three ranks cannot do much better:

Charging, frontages 5:

Against regular troops with AS5+

corsairs : 2.24 wounds
AP spearmen : 1.39 wounds
f three ranks : 2.24 wounds

Second round:

corsairs : 2.24 wounds
AP spearmen : 2.78 wounds
f three ranks : 3.36 wounds

Being charged by regular knights, 2+ AS.

corsairs : 0.167
AP spearmen : 0.58
f three ranks : 0.48

I would rather have fights in three ranks myself.
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Post by Nameless one »

That is why the rule will be added I guess

-1 AS seemed the suggestion by many. But I do not know if this is the rule that we are searching for. I guess I still won't take spearmen with the -1 AS rule. :?

Oh my do we need that to playtest in 4 weeks? :shock:
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Post by Reader of posts »

Even with the -1 AS, I don't think spearmen are really a choice compared to the corsairs, unless spearmen would cost less. Nor would they be very origanal and a very different unit from the other core units. People would still only take city guard (defence) or corsairs(offense). Spearmen seem to be something in the middle, so it isn't really good at either of it.

Spearmen fighting in 3 ranks would really be a bad idea. It would be just a copy of citizen levy, and that is what we must absolutely must avoid. It would be like making reavers core for High elves.
IMO this should never be an option.

Alternatively:

What about allowing the get a free reform, before charges, ala the icon of rakaph of the Tomb kings? It would make them really unique, the tactical possibilities would be endless.
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Post by Langmann »

Another thing, Gav has said he would allow a 1 point reduction in spearmen, or a special rule.

This one may get shot down, but I found it somewhere.

The spear adds +1 AS due to parry rules. The hook like appearence of the spears allows the weapons of the opponent to be caught and parried aside. No change in price.

The problem is the unit is still defensive, but then again spearmen are innately defensive.

No change in price:

Stats : (frontages all 5)

Charged by regular cav S5, AS2+

Cav wounds f three ranks 2.9.
Cav wounds parry 2.34.

f three ranks kills 0.48 cav.
parry kills 0.3064 cav.

Charging normal troopers with spears + shield (ie humans).

corsairs : 2.24 wounds
parry spearmen : 1.12 wounds
f three ranks : 2.24 wounds

humans kill 1.3 corsairs. CR difference 0.84.
humans kill 1.11 parry spearmen. CR difference 0.01. (sad, why we use corsairs)
humans kill 1.3 f three ranks. CR difference 0.84

Next round.

corsairs : 2.24 wounds
parry spearmen : 2.24 wounds
f three ranks : 3.36 wounds

humans kill 1.3 corsairs. CR difference 0.84.
humans kill 0.97 parry spearmen. CR difference 1.27.
humans kill 1.11 f three ranks. CR difference 2.24

Fights in three ranks is once again better....

I want f in three ranks if I have to take any special rule. Even pay extra point for it like the HE.
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Post by Vorchild »

Gee, I would have thought the garrison formation would be enough. However, I've never been too fond of the special rule thing for such common troops. If he reduces points by one, he will have every HE player in an uproar over the cost of an elf (6 pts for those who are not familiar) or over the cost of a spear (2 pts). I think that the best bet for spearmen is to let them be able to drop their spears and just have swords/hand weapons. Does anyone object to an 8 point warrior with a 4+ AS? I think that above all special rules should be kept to a minimum as they generally complicate matters and make this whole revision look really patchy.

It should be noted that I am particularly surprised that Gav would accept a 1 point reduction in their cost. That just boggles my mind as it would mean that every single elf unit is mispriced or that the spear is mispriced. either way, he's have a darn hard time trying to explain it.
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Post by Dark reaper »

The spear adds +1 AS due to parry rules. The hook like appearence of the spears allows the weapons of the opponent to be caught and parried aside. No change in price.


Well, guess this was originally my idea, but I have a new idea, what about heavy armour??
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Post by Reader of posts »

Umh that wouldn't change a thing reaper, you would still have a 4+ save.

Just pointing it out :roll:

edit: O right I get you now :oops:
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Post by Nameless one »

I am against a HA rule: If we get HA then most likely corsairs will get out of order, 4+ from shooting and 4+ save in hand to hand is better then corsairs IMO and they should stay defensive. remember?

What if dark elf spears gives you strength 4, when they are charged? with addittional armour piercing? Makes cavalry rethink their charge against spearmen. (11ppm)

<----I just doesn't sound right must too pike like.

Maybe the -1 point reduction will do. ( I neither like the 3 rank rule)
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Post by Dark reaper »

Idiotic suggestion but...

+1s on charge like a cavalry spear
It would make them worth charging with.
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Post by Purple whisper »

Glad this happens... I am not to happy with the Garrisson formation (the restricted movement rules just don't work for me), so I am happy with something to increase Warrior effectiveness.

I think that fight in three ranks would be most effective, and most boring as well. I am against is, as it would lower the difference between charging Corsairs and charging Warriors.

Reducing point cost would be effective, but would cause a riot in the other armies. (Of course, there is precedent for units being cheaper in one army than in the next)

However, I think that a minor upgrade and keeping them at 9 points would be the most interesting and fun, and that it would give us the option of making them a better match to the Dark Elf army.

Parry: don't know. I would like something a bit more different then Garrisson Formation, and this comes close. Also: a unit in Garrisson Formation carries the same spears, and should profit from this rule.
If we go for this anyway, I would change it: In a unit of spear-armed Warriors, the first rank fights with hw+shield (just like a Garrisson Formation; makes sense that they have the same skills). It is a bit weaker then the parry rule, but the rules fit better together.

Heavy armour: Not a good idea. Elves aren't supposed to be heavy armoured, so you shouldn't give this to a

+1 S on charge sounds fun. There is also a good reason why a unit in Garrison formation doesn't benefit from this, even with the same spears.

Use spear as halberd or armour piercing: fun as well; clashes a bit with Garrison Formation.
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Post by Vorchild »

Purple wrote:In a unit of spear-armed Warriors, the first rank fights with hw+shield (just like a Garrisson Formation; makes sense that they have the same skills). It is a bit weaker then the parry rule, but the rules fit better together.


I like this idea the best. It fits well with the garrison formation rules and has always made sense to me. Fighting in 3 ranks is boring (as said) and all those additional weapons effects make little to no sense, most of them being based on how that spear on the model looks. Is there truly any justification as to why a spear would be armour piercing and not a sword or hand weapon of the same make? The extra S makes them too halberdy, something exclusively reserved for the most elite of elven units (phoenix guards, black guards).

I think this idea of being able to fight thus in the first rank combined with being able to just have warrior units with swords (7 pts) would make the choice as a whole much more viable and even more versatile than the corsairs (who are still better at assault and can still take the magic banner).
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Post by Reader of posts »

Hmm, I don't giving them a 4+ either with parry or with HA, would be a good idea. It would make them very much similar to the CG, and I think thats something to avoid. It isn't really funl as well.

The S4 on charge would make them to much of an offensive unit, and indeed abit wanabe elite. Id still take a unit executioners instead of them, even though spearmen would cost less, just because executioners are much better at their job.

I think we should keep the spearmen defensive in some way or another. The entire army is already offensive, so making another offensive unit wouldn't really be a new addition to the army.
These days lots of armies have large amounts of knights and spearmen could be a response to that. Maybe spearmen could really be the first army which has spears which are effective against cav, just like in real life (braveheart anyone ;) ).
So I think it would be a good idea to give the spearmen a -2 AS against cav when charged in the front. It would really be the dark elf response to all the cavalry armies out there...

What do you think?
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Post by Subedei »

Personally, I think Str.4 spears (on the charge) is the best option. Not only does it give the Dark Elves a useful unit that can deal with armoured opponents better, but also it doesn't unbalance the Cityguard. Either the spearmen charge (and get str 4) or they stand still and get two ranks. It makes them a very flexible unit. As for Cityguard, str 4 doesn't affect them since the first rank (the only one that can hit on the charge) is made up of crossbowmen.

Str 4 may not be decisive vs cavalry, but against tough, heavily armoured infantry (Chaos Chosen, Saurus, Dwarf Ironbreakers etc) it should allow the Spearmen to inflict some wounds, as opposed to bouncing off. It also fits well with the aggressive nature of the DE army - spearmen would make a wonderful supporting unit (esp in flank attacks).

Str 4 spears is very fluffy (given the spear's name) and is very much WYSIWYG.

Fight in three ranks is a just a bit boring and generic for my tastes - DEs are supposed to be distinctive from HEs.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

CLARIFICATION


My apologies as there was some confusion in what I said to Langmann during our telephone conversation yesterday ( probably due to my abuse of caffeine and the adrenalin high following my meeting :lol: )


Gav sees the Dark Elf army very much as an offensive army and he prefers to encourage the use of Spearmen if at all possible. So much so that he is open to suggestions of a points cost reduction and a special rule to increase their effectiveness.

Fighting in three ranks however is NOT on the table as he sees that very much as a defensive HE rule. He is giving us the opportunity to develop our own special rule here.

You have two weeks to do this due to print copy deadlines. Please keep this thread on topic - Spearmen only.
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Post by /\\//\ »

Some possible options:

+1 S on the charge because of the heavy blade (just compare our spear blades with other races!)

When charged the Spearmen negate the enemy's WS by 1. This is because of all the barbs and spikes in our Spear blades. The enemy is partially preoccupied in avoiding slitting his wrists when he attacks our Spearmen.

Spearmen fight in 2 ranks whether they charge or are charged. This can be due the second rank's eagerness to attack the enemy when they charge, however the spear is simply not long enough for them to fight in 3 ranks.


The last one is my personal favourite as it creates a more flexible unit that is just as good on th offense as the defense.
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Post by Nameless one »

fight in two ranks: I absolutely do not like this idea, it makes corsairs absolete. One thing we do not want IMO.

But with what rule can we make spearmen offensive? Doesn't GW and we here need to admit that spearmen cannot have an offensive role on the battle field? (fluff and rule wise, mainly fluff)
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Post by Langmann »

/\\// wrote:Some possible options:

+1 S on the charge because of the heavy blade (just compare our spear blades with other races!)

When charged the Spearmen negate the enemy's WS by 1. This is because of all the barbs and spikes in our Spear blades. The enemy is partially preoccupied in avoiding slitting his wrists when he attacks our Spearmen.

Spearmen fight in 2 ranks whether they charge or are charged. This can be due the second rank's eagerness to attack the enemy when they charge, however the spear is simply not long enough for them to fight in 3 ranks.


The last one is my personal favourite as it creates a more flexible unit that is just as good on th offense as the defense.


I am disappointed in the number of people that do not understand. S4 on the charge is NOT better than two attacks with S3. I have done the statistics. Please read them. S4 on the charge WILL be useless. Again corsairs better.

F in three ranks is NOT boring! It is better in HTH than S4 on the charge, and it works better for breaking things if you get stuck in.
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Post by Langmann »

Vorchild wrote:Gee, I would have thought the garrison formation would be enough. However, I've never been too fond of the special rule thing for such common troops. If he reduces points by one, he will have every HE player in an uproar over the cost of an elf (6 pts for those who are not familiar) or over the cost of a spear (2 pts). I think that the best bet for spearmen is to let them be able to drop their spears and just have swords/hand weapons. Does anyone object to an 8 point warrior with a 4+ AS? I think that above all special rules should be kept to a minimum as they generally complicate matters and make this whole revision look really patchy.


We cannot. We are constrained by Gavs orders to make the spearmen work. No handweapon warriors.

As an aside Gav likes special rules...
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Post by Langmann »

Dark Alliance wrote:CLARIFICATION

Gav sees the Dark Elf army very much as an offensive army and he prefers to encourage the use of Spearmen if at all possible. So much so that he is open to suggestions of a points cost reduction and a special rule to increase their effectiveness.

Fighting in three ranks however is NOT on the table as he sees that very much as a defensive HE rule. He is giving us the opportunity to develop our own special rule here.


I think Gav needs to rethink this, or spearmen are going to still be dwarfed by corsairs.

F in three ranks IS offensive. As Nameless one said, spearmen are by nature defensive and getting by that is impossible.

Statistically the only thing that does damage better than corsairs (and only by secnd round) is f in three ranks. S4 is worse than corsairs. Two ranks is same as corsairs and still no good. The only thing that makes sense is F in three ranks, and corsairs will be still taken as they will be a cheaper alternative against shooty armies. At least however with F in three ranks spearmen will be useful. Plus 3 ranks is good for taking charges by cav as well...
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Post by Jargobae »

S4 first round of combat

you work out thew fluff ;)
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Post by Reader of posts »

Reader of posts wrote:Hmm, I don't giving them a 4+ either with parry or with HA, would be a good idea. It would make them very much similar to the CG, and I think thats something to avoid. It isn't really fun as well.

The S4 on charge would make them to much of an offensive unit, and indeed abit wanabe elite. Id still take a unit executioners instead of them, even though spearmen would cost less, just because executioners are much better at their job.

I think we should keep the spearmen defensive in some way or another. The entire army is already offensive, so making another offensive unit wouldn't really be a new addition to the army.
These days lots of armies have large amounts of knights, so spearmen could be a response to that. Maybe spearmen could really be the first army which has spears which are effective against cav, just like in real life (braveheart anyone ? ;) ).
So I think it would be a good idea to give the spearmen a -2 AS against cav when charged in the front. It would really be the dark elf response to all the cavalry armies out there...

What do you think?



Since noone responded to my new idea i'll just quote my origanal thought.
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