Spearmen Open for Business

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Nameless one
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Post by Nameless one »

Hey that was my idea! :P

I like it and it add another tactical dark elf twist while playing with them. This add. rule will let them be defensive.

BUT: When you play defensive what would you field nowadays with this revision?
-Yes the answer is cityguard. Will spearmen by this change another 'must have' option? No Cavalry will never charge them and will charge cityguard instead.

I'd say give them that -2 As whether they charge or whether are being charged in the front by cavalry. (A normal -1 AS against infantry) Fluff reason= Dark Elf use their spears as grapling hooks and the Knights are a bit too concerned about gettin thrown of their horse. Not paying attention to throw attacks off against vital spots.

If in some case you need that special slot you use spearmen instead of executioners. Executioners are still better taking T4 cavalry but whenever you know you will most probably face T3 cavalry I would say give it a chance. And use the normal spearmen.

Reason why I not like fighting in three ranks: Simple, if it would come through all other players will frown upon with a "what high elves have I want it to" look. :? This is what I want to prevent.
Last edited by Nameless one on Sun Apr 13, 2003 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by /\\//\ »

This is getting complicated :?

I too am against fight in 3 ranks for mainly the same reasons. I simply do not want what High Elves have, I want a more unique Elven spearmen regiment.

What we need to do here is to create a unit that is either up to standards with the Corsairs or not as good but significantly cheaper.

Now with the current rules Spearmen I consider to be 10 points a model as most people I know who use them almost always equip them with shields.

Now Corsairs are the same points cost and a unit 5 wide delivers 10 attacks at all times.

2 ranks of 5 Spearmen deliver 5 attacks when charging and 10 attacks when charged. Spearmen currently are better on the defensive because the loss of a Corsair means more attacks lost than with Spearmen.

For example if a Corsair unit that is made up of 2 ranks of 5 is charged and suffers 3 casualties, it has 4 attacks back.
If a Spearmen unit of the smae size and formation is charged and suffers 3 casualties it has 7 attacks back.

However, Corsairs have better protection against missile fire and magic.
The Dark Elves as Gav said are designed to be more of an offensive army than defensive. This means that we either need to find a rule that makes Spearmen just as good on the charge and with just as good an armour save.

Now I don't think we can get the Spearmen's maximum armour save lower than 5+ so i think that to compensate this we should get a points decrease and to compensate these drawbacks.

I stated earlier in this post that if Spearmen fought in 2 ranks when charging and receiving a charge then they will be basically as effective as Corsairs.

2 ranks of 5 Corsairs get 10 attacks when charging and when receiving a charge (assuming none die.)

2 ranks of 5 Spearmen with this new rule get 10 attacks when charging and when receiving a charge (assuming none die.)

Now the only thing that makes the Corsairs still better is their increased armour save against shooting and magic. To compensate Spearmen on this I think they should be 1 point cheaper.


Therefore I think Spearmen should be priced at 8 points a model, be able to take shields and be able to always fight in 2 ranks. This makes a 9 point model that is as good as a Corsair which is 1 point more expensive because of its better armour save against shooting and magic. this also retains the offensive nature of the army which Gav thinks should be encouraged.

Ask me if any part is unclear :)
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Post by Dark reaper »

I read one of the posts one the mod on the GW forum posted in the Baron's thread, here is his exact words:

-I don't see why DE spearmen should be more efficient at dealing with heavy cav than any other spear unit. To me, same weapon, same use.

-I agree though that DE spearmen are less efficient (whatever the opponent) than other spearmen units, due to lack special rules or weak statline.

-I think that the DE spearmen issue is rather a general elvish issue. This elvish issue is what really annoy me. HE spearmen can cope with it, they replace strength with number of hits, without aiming at a specific type of opponent. So if you want to improve the DE spearmen (and they need to), I'd rather go for a general bonus. I wouldn't be against three ranks fighting, or armor piercing, or can charge and still fight in two ranks for example...



Or a link to the thread here: http://www.games-workshop.com/membershi ... 42799&R=96
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Post by Langmann »

So far I like where you are going AVA. However, I think that we should go all the way. The benefits of f in three ranks are excellent against all the cavalry armies out there, and give you that extra punch in the next round of hth. There are some armies where you will get stuck in HTH. Undead is one, dwarfs are another, and so on. The f in three ranks actually makes spearmen BETTER than dwarfs (with HA, hw + shield) on the second round.

If we are going to go with attacks with 2 ranks, then we should go all the way, or once again the HE are going to have the better rules, once again there will be that swordsmaster vs executioner thing going on.

Finally I think that the HE spearmen are going to get dropped by one point. :(

Moreover, f in three ranks is something I think all elves should have, so it should not be HE specific. Also we have two weeks left for this, and f in three ranks has been playtested.

*NOTE*

1+ S or -2AS will NOT be considered. I have explained why already. They do not pack anough of a punch, please read my statistics. -2AS has a close potential but is very much defensive.
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Post by /\\//\ »

Are you sure we can persuade Gav? Hopefully if we get fight in 3 ranks we won't get a mouthful from every High Elf player we play.
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Post by Langmann »

/\\// wrote:Are you sure we can persuade Gav? Hopefully if we get fight in 3 ranks we won't get a mouthful from every High Elf player we play.


From some WE players I have talked to they are annoyed with the uselessness of their spearmen. Luckily they have some good units to use as flankers.

I think F in three ranks will be an elven ability, not just for HE. Thus something not distinct for just HE, but distinct for elves.

HE players complain a lot. Core designer heavy cav, swordsmasters, cheap magic.... surely their spearmen are not what makes them unique. :? Besides their list needs some work as well.
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Post by Lord Veshnakar »

In my deepest humnle opinion I really thing they should finish off the rest of the armies except wood elves, and then spend time working on all three books, high elves, dark elves, and wood elves, and just get the basics of what they want elves to bve and what the players want elves to be, then design the armies around that idea of the original elf. Otherwide were just making little changes , unit by unit and still as a while we will have problems, I fell if we are revising elves it should be done right the frist time and I think some changes to elves that would make things more realistic toward elves winning a round of combat would be...

- perhaps a change to the way the to hit chart is worked....

- when striking an elf having to have -1 to hit in close combat for being quick..

- elves initiative having more of a purpose in battle instead of just effecting the second turn of combat, sheesh

- perhaps a increase of elven movement by 1 so we can avoid unessecary charges

- better armor on elves, after all most our units are twice what other armies units cost and yet we still have the same armor as them and fight just as or less effectively

Thats really all I can think of, I mean I do like the revision, dont get me wrong, but army books keep getting better and better and I dont see how dark elves are going to be able to beat beastmen without some kind of singifigant change....
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Post by /\\//\ »

If they do High and Dark Elves now they will know what to do when it comes to Wood Elves.

I'm afraid it's a bit too late now. We're getting the revision in 5 weeks.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

We are not getting a revision in 5 weeks. As I have said before, that is the copy deadline for the next Annual.
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Post by /\\//\ »

When are we getting it then?

Are we now not getting a WD article?
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Post by Naram sin »

I will agre that fighting in three ranks will be a good booster but it is defensive IMO. But if it would'n be accepted I thik speraelves should be given +1 fighting rank when charging (fighting eaven when charging in two ranks) rule
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Post by Lord Veshnakar »

how about we get 2 ranks while being attacked and 3 while attacking instead of 3 while defending and 2 when attacking? eh ? eh?
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Post by Reader of posts »

Might be a good idea Veshnakar. However, I don't think elves should have all the same infantry. It may be logical, but to me citizen levy has always been a High elf thing. Indeed, if DE would get CL wood elves would get it as well. But I think WE will get an entire new set of rules for glade gaurd, or the unit will be entirely removed for another.

It would just be another unit which is similar between the elves; we would be going down the same road as in 5th ed, where HE and DE had few differences. Secondly,I fear when the HE get their revision, theyll be screaming for stuff we have, like killing blow for swordmasters or something. In fact they are doing it already; they want Phoenix guard to always have reroll missed attacks (ulthuan.org) :roll: .

We should have CL as a last resort IMO. Maybe CL is the way to go for spearnen, but I think we should at least try to come up with another rule. I came up with some new ideas myself:

Spearwall: It's not nice to charge into a hedge of spears, and it is difficult to get to the enemy, without hitting a spear. All troops attacking spearmen in combat get -1 to hit. Troops attacking with a handweapon don't get this penalty (they can dodge the spears aside with their weapons.

Spearwall v2: Its hard to avoid getting hit when charging a hedge of spears. Spearmen get +1 to it. When fighting troops with a handweapon, spearmen don't get this bonus (they can dodge the spears aside with their weapons).

What do you think? Maybe combine these rules together?
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Post by Naram sin »

Reader your solution is nice but we are looking for making spearelves ofensive unit not giving them aditional bonuses for stand ground!!!!
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Post by Jargobae »

1+ S or -2AS will NOT be considered.


im sorry but i dont see why giving elves S4 in the first round of combat shouldnt be an option.

Reader your solution is nice but we are looking for making spearelves ofensive unit not giving them aditional bonuses for stand ground!!!!


I also disagree on this factor. I realize that im in a minority here ut i truly believe that spearmen should not be an offensive unit. WE HAVE OFFENSIVE UNITS! we dont need any more. What i would like is a unit to shove on the flank, take a charge, hold and do some damage.

Every army has spearmen as a defensive unit. Want attacking unit, get corsairs, CoK, or witches.

These are my thoughts as of now.
the options

- 1+ strength first ropund of combat.

- 1+ strength first round of cobat when taking as charge and always armour piercing

- +1 to hit with spearelves

- -1 to hit against spearelves

- fight in 3 ranks but only if WE get it too.

If people like me who want to keep spearmen defensive are not wanted to have their opinions heard then tell me and ill go post and annoy someone else ;)
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Post by Naram sin »

Quote:

Reader your solution is nice but we are looking for making spearelves ofensive unit not giving them aditional bonuses for stand ground!!!!



I also disagree on this factor. I realize that im in a minority here ut i truly believe that spearmen should not be an offensive unit. WE HAVE OFFENSIVE UNITS! we dont need any more. What i would like is a unit to shove on the flank, take a charge, hold and do some damage.

Every army has spearmen as a defensive unit. Want attacking unit, get corsairs, CoK, or witches.



we are looking for somethink different as I recognize it is what DA wrote:

Gav sees the Dark Elf army very much as an offensive army and he prefers to encourage the use of Spearmen if at all possible. So much so that he is open to suggestions of a points cost reduction and a special rule to increase their effectiveness.
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Post by Reader of posts »

Like you said Naram Sin, gav wants to encourage the use of spears, so I think we should both consinder both defensive and offensive ideas for the spearme . The DE army is mainly offensive. I don't think making spearmen offensive is a good idea, because spearmen are priced for there defensive capabilities (spears). This defensive ability is acounted for in the spearmen's price. So making them offensive and defensive at the same time would make them unnecisarely expensive.
As much as I like making spearmen offensive, they are defensive by nature because they have spears.
So i think best way to go is to consider the defensive abilties that were suggested.
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Post by Naram sin »

Reader your point of view is quite similar to my one. I think we should give them special rule that will allow them to fight with extra rank whrn charging and in defence some kind of first strike - SPEAR WALL when fighting w/ units using different weapon than spears (or something longer) eaven models killed during charge can fight back - it will eqal situation when charging enemy will have unsuspected kills when charging into a hedge of spears, I think it will be good and realistic rule.
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Post by Draichlord »

"The Drannach is designed as an evil weapon. It gives DE spearmen +1 on a charge and with it's parrying ability DE spearmen are -1 to hit."
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Post by Naram sin »

something realy crazy: spear is a long weapon that can hit opponent rfom rane bigger that sword or something, druhi master techa its students how to use Dranach without going into normal HtH to represent it if and only if ynuit on spearelves will miss chrge by up to 1inche they wil not move its normal move but will strike opponent without engaging into CC, standing 1" appart from them, front rank will strike as normal but opponent will not be able to give back(he will be able if he will have spears or pikes), after that normal CR will be made and loosing site will have to pass brake test if opponent will pass it he will be bale (or eaven must) charge spear elves - this rule was finde in my had during my wisit to the dentist so if you don't like it and don't want to have similar crazy ideas pleas keap away from dentists.
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Post by Dark reaper »

dentists?? :o
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Post by Naram sin »

yes, when he was "reparing" my tooth.
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Post by Reader of posts »

:mrgreen: . That's pretty wacky. I come up with most of my ideas at school, because there isn't really uch else to do :D .

I think youre idea may get complicated because, if the enemy fails it's charge by 1 inch, the enemy will move half it's move, so the spearmen won't be within 1 icnh of the enemy and they wouldn't benefit from this rule. It's really impossible to benfit from this rule as it currently stands.
And even if you would discard the ruling given above, 1 inch isn't allot, and the spearmen only would benefit from this rule only in very certain circumstances.

A better idea maybe is, when the enemy charges and fails it's charge, the spearmen are allowed to counter charge the enemy if the want to. What do you think?


p.s Naram Sin no offense, but I think you should download an English word and type messages there so the computer can check your spelling. Just copy the messageyou typed into the site reply box. I really had a hard time reading your message, so maybe this is a good idea.
I sometimes use word myself when I right long messages to check my spelling, and you learn English from the spelling corrector too!
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Post by Lord Veshnakar »

Id like to link everyone to an idea by the baron on WPS

http://www.players-society.com/newforum ... php?t=6899


I think its a really nice nice idea......really shows the dark elves tactical prowess IMHO
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Post by Naram sin »

Ok. from now on I will be writing my posts in Word with spelling check. I have something that you call dyslexia.

You misunderstand me. I was talking that this rule will apply to charging spearelves.. more than 1” will be too big distance to fight, even with spear. That what I said was only a first think, I will agree to make a SPEARWALL special rule.

SPEARWALL: when spearelves will be charged all models will be able to give back even this killed by charging enemy. This will represent art of war, special tactic similar to ancient Roman turtle formation.

A better idea maybe is, when the enemy charges and fails it's charge, the spearmen are allowed to counter charge the enemy if the want to. What do you think?

I’m for but do you want to make counter charge in opponent turn as a something like charge reaction, e g instead to normal stand ground if opponent will fail charge you will make counter attack??
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