ABUSING THE REVISION

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Dark Alliance
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ABUSING THE REVISION

Post by Dark Alliance »

One thing that came out of my meeting with Gav was the importance of trying to find ways of abusing any new ideas.

We have touched on this before but I really need to see if you can find ways of abusing the Revision changes. Can you make the army uber cheesey?

This is merely a paper exercise so get to work guys :D
Last edited by Dark Alliance on Thu May 22, 2003 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by /\\//\ »

The only one I can really think of now from my playtesting is the Banner of Cold Blood, Cold Blooded option (i.e. psychology tests are taken on 3D6 with the highest score discounted.) For 20 points the unit hardly ever fails it's stupidity and it can become a no-brainer choice. However the new Lizardmen Cold One Riders will have it included in their points cost so maybe we should wait and see how they turn out.
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Post by Vorchild »

Well, I've tried being as cheesy as possible in my previous playtesting games, putting the soulstealer item on a highborn mounted on a dragon and getting him up to 6 wounds, as well as going uber magic heavy with the hand and both the staff of slavery and well of souls included in the mix. Only the really magic heavy option was any real terror, but one that can easily be overcome when it comes to playing that army again, meaning in tourneys it will be at a disadvantage.

The other thing I am worried about, as I have said before, is the relentless assault for execs combined with the hydra banner and the cauldron of blood. I mean, without the banner, I went through 11 HE spearmen with ease, and I have no doubt that the unit would have ceased to exist after the initial charge had I put that banner in the unit. However, that result has much brearing on how the hatred factor for DE and is of less consequence for other races, though not everybody else has units that can fight in 3 ranks.

I will, however, continue to look everything over and see what holes I can find.
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Post by /\\//\ »

I agree with Vorchild that the relentless assualt for the Executioners can be too overpowering. From my most recent playtest report it showed that Executioners are now the best thing we have in our army to kill high toughness/armour save units such as heavy cavalry. Heavy Armour means they are a bit more sustainable and S4 means that just about every heavy cavalry is in danger of being cut down to size. I think KB 6+ is enough as I feel the fact they have got killing blow in the first place is fluffy enough, let alone 5+ killing blow. They can also be combined with the Banner Of Relentless Assault (change the name!) for even greater protection and are basically a shock troop. They are not Black Guard, they are not designed to take charges and hold the enemy for round after round of combat. I really do think they are fine now.
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Post by Jargobae »

one thing that may need to be discussed is perhaps the extreme use of magic in a non magic army.

In combination with our
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some people may be able to make a fairly offensive magic force using no sorceresses?
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Post by Naram sin »

I wil agree with /\\//\. Relentless assault could be too mutch. unit with hydra banner will have about Exec 9A (unith with 4Exec in fornt rank and BSB) hiting moustly on 3 and wounding also on 3 and KB rule. I was throwing my dices now and I will have about 6 additional atacks! In this simulation I killed about 10 ennemies, with standard, rand and outnoumber it is -13 to CR without counting BSB atacks!!!
I think option with HA, +1S and probably Fear will be the besr choice. I was playtesting this unit yesterday and they deal with stegadon!! 5KB isnt necesery, having S of 6 HCav unit gets -3 to AS so opponent will have save value of 5. I must said that I dislike things like 5+KB since Wrightlord killed my General throwing one 5.
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Post by Reader of posts »

I agree with AVA and vorchild that Executioners with relentless asault and the hydra banner is very powerful. However I don't think it's overpowering. The unit itself with BSB costs about 500 pts and it can still easily be countered with S4 missile fire or just a cavalry charge. They still die as easily as before.
Relentless assualt seems the best thing to do IMO.

However I don't like the idea of 2 Dominions in an army with the spellcal familiar and the staff of slavery. In one of my battles, Dominion + Dark riders is a very deadly combo so I put both a noble with the staff and a sorceress with SCF (with dominion) in a unit of dark riders. In this way I could stall the enemy in turn 1 with dominion. When you move behind an enemy unit and cast dominion on them, they cant face you in their turn and you can charge them in the back. In a magic heavy army this tacttic can be very effective, and tis may turn out in one of the deadliest combo's in the game.
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Post by Nameless one »

I agree somewhat with /\\//\ executioners are now very powerfull BUT as you previously stated Gav wants to see them as shocktroops. Well and as shock troops I wouldn't allow the unit size to be too big, max 15 p.e.
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Post by Naram sin »

About Exec with relentles assault - I was making some simulatins, with hydra and 4 exec in front rank i was inflicting even 12W to H Cav units.
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Post by Nameless one »

Naram Sin, the RA is NOT as relentless as with the bone giant! You get only one attack extra.

I guess you inmprenent the rule wrong, otherwise you would have a whole lot of luck.
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Post by Naram sin »

I kneaw that Nameless

Relentless Assault

For each wound inflicted by the initial swing of the draich, an additional attack is made. Additional wounds do not cause additional attacks. This reflects the ability of the executioner to cleave through one opponent and then another. Example: Executioners in round 4 of combat cause 3 wounds, they are then allowed 3 more attacks. 0-1.

so unit having 4 exec witch champion (with BSB with Hydra as fifth person in rank) have in firs round of combat 9 atacks without BSB. With luck you can inflict eg 7 wounds what isn't so hard with high WS and S, then you have aditional 7 atacks if you will inflict 5W it is 12W inflicted only by unit.
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Post by Jargobae »

but think about how expensive the unit would be with hydra banner and so forth.

relentless assault is fine with me and my opponents
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Post by Draichlord »

The relentless assault was originally my idea, trying to represent how grt wpn armed warriors actually fought. This option CANNOT be used with S4 or 5+KB also , as it is way to powerful. I stick with "any unit of exes may take hvy arm for +1pt. One unit of exes may upgrade to base S4 for +1pt". See my 3 comments in Grots' post on exes
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Post by Draichlord »

The only ubercheese I'd found in my playtesting so far has already been dealt with by re-wording chillblade to be -1A to opponent for each successful roll to wound, rather than roll to hit. VC had a great counter for it anyway by giving grave guard or black knights a mix of Banner of the Barrows(auto hit on 3+) and the Cursed Book(enemy w/i 6" are -1 to hit)
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Post by Maelis »

Chill blade could be good with -1A for successful roll to wound, but WITHOUT S+1.

Relentless Assault seems too good - with KB (even 6+) and a bit of luck you can case LOTS of wounds with high strenght and high WS. THat would also incease the chance of killingblowing enemy characters - 2 Execs + champion i BSB contact so there gos 4A + lets say 1 or 2 additional attacks = 5 or 6 attacks against that character <=> HIGH CHANCE OF KB
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Post by Maelis »

I admit I was wrong - Relentless Assault isnt MUCH better than KB5+ (unless my calculations are OK) until enemy actual Armor Save drops to 5+ or worse (after taking S modificator). So against Knights AND characters the KB5+ works MUCH better - Relentless Asault is going forward when we are talking about atleast heavy armored infantry.

ALSO there isanother poit - You CANT kill character so easily with Relntless Asualt as with KB5+, so it should calm all opposing players saying NO! to "Executioners Revised". In other words Relentless Assualt should be priced just like KB5+ I think - its better against med. armor, but its much worse against characters and knights.

Please comment on this.
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Post by Draichlord »

My original idea with relentless assault was that the executioners would keep 6+kb, but could not have either S4 or 5+kb. This would keep them priced at 13pts each. It worked ok, but only tested it 1 time. It's power(relentless assault) is greatly reduced if your opponent has any way of modifying your ability to hit or your ability to wound. That's why my preference for all of us is 6+KB, S4, heavy armor for 13pts.
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Post by Medved »

i dunno, i really think that relentless rule makes the executioner worth it, they can deliver some punch, ive tried it. str 4 is not enough, but if u combine it with fear for exemple, wich seems to be popular, i think it become too powerful...
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Post by Nameless one »

What I was poundering:

IF the relentless assault will not come through due to the simple reason that it will make a cheese combo with Hydra banner I propose the following addition have to be made to the hydra banner:

"The Hydra banner was created to personalize the extra ordinary swiftness of the beast's attack. Great weapons do no gain any bonuses from the banner because the use of the Draich alone drains too much energy from the wielder."

(Btw I do not agree with the statement that it is per se cheezy to allow the executioners to use the banner. On average the effect on Cold one riders is better.)
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Post by Medved »

i agree with that, even now without revision, its possible to do something powerful with executionner+hydra banner (even with CoB), its just the way the banner work, giving many, many many, more atacks :mrgreen:
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Post by Medved »

i agree with that, even now without revision, its possible to do something powerful with executionner+hydra banner (even with CoB), its just the way the banner work, giving many, many many, more atacks :mrgreen:
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Post by Maelis »

I still think its VERY expensice combo and its efect is worth its price.
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Post by Maelis »

I still think its VERY expensice combo and its efect is worth its price.
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Post by Subedei »

Execs+Relentless Assault+Hydra Banner+Assasin, is all but unbeatable in close combat, I've seen them wipe out half a chaos army all on their own! Protect them from missile fire and they'd be just as nasty against other armies apart from Chaos. Especially if they have an assasin insuring them against being charged.
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