How the blazes do you kill ogres

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Lethalis
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Post by Lethalis »

maaksel wrote:Umm, someone mentioned 16 spears can hold off a unit of 4 bulls?

thats 4 auto hits, and 17 hitting on 4's (roughly 9 hits), thats
13 hits wounding on 3's (round up to 7 wounds) saving at 5+, thats 5 wounds (rounded).

2 attacks back (1 hit, 5+ to wound)...

Spears +3 for ranks +1 for possible wound +1 for standard.

thats +5 with luck on the wound...

Ogres are already +5 and now outweigh (US 12 now) +1...

They cause fear - causing auto break - so no 16 spears can't take a charge from 4 bulls =/

But its also like 60 points cheaper

No, I said that they can hold off 3 bulls. But your maths is flawed in that it counts the impact hits. Dunno how you play, but I never let the Ogres get that Bull charge ;)
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Post by Kou'vas »

Have a battle line and move it forward in the first turn. keep some harpies or a pegasus noble behind your lines then when the ogres move close pull all your units back and send the flyers behind them. That will buy you another turn while they try to deal with them as they stop them marching.

If they get too close so you cant get away move right up in front of them, this will stop them from getting the impact hits (they would have charged anyway so dont worry about them attacking you first.

Also take repeaters crossbows as they are quite effective. throw enough sh*t at a wall and some of it is gonna stick.

Use an assassin with the chillblade and rune of Khaine to hopefully wound a tyrant or bruiser and watch as he cant attack back! This works best in conjunction with a cauldron of blood to get more succesful wounds.

The Ogres arent that hard to play against. you just have to keep calm. ;)
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Here is a checklist of things to keep in mind when fighting ogres:

1) Bull ogres on the charge will beat almost any unit we can filed. Ironguts are even worse. So do not take a charge unless you absolutely have to. It is generally better to flee than to fight when you are on the receiving end.

2) Flank charge whenever possible. Even though ogres rarely have ranks, you can minimize the number of return attacks you will be facing if you can get in a flank charge. One thing I like to do is shoot at a unit with crossbows and do one or two wounds. Then when I charge in the flank with dark riders, I only need to do one or two wounds to kill san ogre and not face return attacks from that model.

3) Ogres have poor armor saves, so missile fire can do a lot of damage to them. Mobile missile fire, like shades and dark riders, are better than ranked units of crossbowmen.

4) Witch elves can beat ogres, even when charged. Deploy them in a wide line to maximize your attacks. Don't worry about rank bonus with the witches when facing ogres.

5) Use the Venom Sword on a highborn -- Usually this item sucks, but against multi-wound, poorly-armored ogres, it is awesome.

6) Use chariots. They have better charge range than the ogres, and since they deal damage across a small frontage, the can charge and hopefully not face any return attacks.

7) As others have said, don't let the ogres use their bull charge ability. If you plan to take a charge, move up within 6" of the ogres.
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Post by Tharashar »

Try to win the combat resolution and not the combat. You do this with DR in the flank or rear and infantery in front of them.
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Dark Riders should never charge the rear of an ogre unit. They will face far too many return attacks. Only charge the flank with Dark Riders.
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Post by Dh'akor claw of naggaroth »

maaksel said:
Umm, someone mentioned 16 spears can hold off a unit of 4 bulls?

thats 4 auto hits, and 17 hitting on 4's (roughly 9 hits), thats
13 hits wounding on 3's (round up to 7 wounds) saving at 5+, thats 5 wounds (rounded).

2 attacks back (1 hit, 5+ to wound)...

Spears +3 for ranks +1 for possible wound +1 for standard.

thats +5 with luck on the wound...

Ogres are already +5 and now outweigh (US 12 now) +1...

They cause fear - causing auto break - so no 16 spears can't take a charge from 4 bulls =/

But its also like 60 points cheaper


refering to the armybuilder only the meneaters cause fear is this correct?if this is true then cold ones should be enough to make m run. right?
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Post by Walrusm3 »

Right I really don't think ogres kingdom (non-chaos) regenerate, but can you really not allocate their wounds because I think that would of made things a lot easier (and the ogre player would have had lots more casualties).
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Post by Dranthar »

WalrusM3 wrote:Right I really don't think ogres kingdom (non-chaos) regenerate, but can you really not allocate their wounds because I think that would of made things a lot easier (and the ogre player would have had lots more casualties).


Ogre Butchers can cast a 'remains in play' spell called trollguts which gives one of their units regenerate. If it works though, the butcher automatically takes a wound, so unless you absolutely have to stop it before the next round of HTH, you are often better off dispelling it later with your power dice. ;)

With any multiwound units, you always allocate wounds to one model until that model loses all his wounds, before moving onto the next model. In other words, if you cause 5 wounds to a unit of ogre bulls, three wounds go onto one ogre bull (killing him), and the remaining wounds go onto a second ogre bull. If that unit takes more wounds in subsequent turns, then the wounded ogre takes wounds first.

As someone else said, if you were able to distribute wounds across a unit so that none of your models die until everyone is down to their last wound, that would make trolls almost impossible to kill. :roll:
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Post by Walrusm3 »

Yea I thought that and so did my friends who collected ogres think you can allocate wounds.
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Post by Lethalis »

claw of naggaroth wrote:refering to the armybuilder only the meneaters cause fear is this correct?if this is true then cold ones should be enough to make m run. right?

No, not true. All Ogres cause Fear. However, this does mean that the Cold One knights need not to make a fear test when charging the Ogres :)
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Post by Dh'akor claw of naggaroth »

Lethalis wrote:
claw of naggaroth wrote:refering to the armybuilder only the meneaters cause fear is this correct?if this is true then cold ones should be enough to make m run. right?

No, not true. All Ogres cause Fear. However, this does mean that the Cold One knights need not to make a fear test when charging the Ogres :)
r you sure?i don't play ogres but the armybuilder states that the meneatrs cause fear, but none of the normal ogres has this in his profile. I'm playing against them soon for the first time,but have no book to check m out only the army builder.

dranthar said
With any multiwound units, you always allocate wounds to one model until that model loses all his wounds, before moving onto the next model. In other words, if you cause 5 wounds to a unit of ogre bulls, three wounds go onto one ogre bull (killing him), and the remaining wounds go onto a second ogre bull. If that unit takes more wounds in subsequent turns, then the wounded ogre takes wounds first.

is that in the rulebook some where, a friend of mine alway's distributes his taken wounds across his unit of peg. knights.
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Post by Dranthar »

Army builder isn't entirely reliable for rules. There are always a few mistakes here and there, and the ogre one would be one of them. All ogres definitely cause fear. There's no question about it.

As for the distributing wounds rule, I am positive that it would be in the rulebook somewhere, but I couldn't tell you where as I don't have the book with me right now. I'll see if I can confirm a page number later on.
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Post by Fr0 »

Dyvim Tvar wrote:Dark Riders should never charge the rear of an ogre unit. They will face far too many return attacks. Only charge the flank with Dark Riders.


I thought you couldn't turn to face the attackers if you are rear charged?

But, even if you can charging the flank is a better option.

I have no experience vs OK yet, but I just read a decent article here.

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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Fr0 wrote:
Dyvim Tvar wrote:Dark Riders should never charge the rear of an ogre unit. They will face far too many return attacks. Only charge the flank with Dark Riders.


I thought you couldn't turn to face the attackers if you are rear charged?


You don't turn to face, but you still get your full attacks.

A model in BTB with the enemy can always fight with its full number of attacks reagrdless of whether the enemy is to the front, side or rear. The only exception that comes to mind is chariots -- the steeds can only fight to the front.
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Post by Thanee »

How should Witch Elves be able to beat Ogres, if they get charged!?


It is certainly not a sure thing . . .

But if the unit of witch elves is deployed very wide (forget about ranks) the Ogres will have to get very lucky to kill enough witches to keep from getting hit back very hard in turn. Things also depend a bit on how the ogres are equipped -- if they maximize their armor save by using ironfists as shields, it makers it harder for the witches.

Ok, here's an example. A 4-wide unit of bulls charges some witch elves and chooses to maximize their attacks. The witch elf champion issues a challenge in order to protect her unit from casualties. Against the unit, there are 12 attacks from the bulls, 6 hit, and 4 wound. Against the hag, there are 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, and 1.66 wounds. Assuming the witch unit was deployed wide instead of in ranks, you could have 10 witch elves in contact with the ogres. So 5 models attacking back is 15 attacks, 10 of those are hits and including poison, 5 of them are wounds.

So before things like banners, ranks, outnumbering, etc, its a pretty closely matched fight. And in the next round, things will get ugly for the ogres when the witches fight first with 30 attacks.

Things could go poorly for the witches with some lucky dice for the ogres, but if the ogres roll poorly on the charge, chances are they will get beaten.
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Post by Joew »

One thing to remember is that you should own the magic phase, since Ogres cannot use a Butcher for a general, so must buy another character as well, and cannot use the lord level mage (forgot name because never seen on used) without having an Ogre Tyrant. As the units are pretty small and he shouldn't have all that much magic defense, I would just focus on destroying (or at least causing panic) on one or two units a turn (always go for Leadbelchers and Ironguts, expensive and dangeros).
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Thanee -- I meant to respond to your post and somehow ended up editing it . . . sorry about that.
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Post by Dranthar »

JoeW wrote:One thing to remember is that you should own the magic phase,


I wouldn't be so sure about that. While they can't max out on magic like other armies can, they can still get some very effective defensive items against magic. I can't remember any off the top of my head (apart from the gnoblar thief stone - cheap MR1 IIRC), but I wouldn't get too confident about smacking the ogres around with magic.

BTW - the Lord level mage is a Slaughtermaster
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Post by Dranthar »

I realise this is a double post, but it's also a few days later (?) and there's enough extra info to warrant a second post anyway, so apologies if I've offended the high-and-mighty moderators with my brash posting habits or something. :mrgreen:

claw of naggaroth wrote:dranthar said
With any multiwound units, you always allocate wounds to one model until that model loses all his wounds, before moving onto the next model. In other words, if you cause 5 wounds to a unit of ogre bulls, three wounds go onto one ogre bull (killing him), and the remaining wounds go onto a second ogre bull. If that unit takes more wounds in subsequent turns, then the wounded ogre takes wounds first.

is that in the rulebook some where, a friend of mine alway's distributes his taken wounds across his unit of peg. knights.


Okay, I've looked through the rulebook and found what you're after.
p65 or the rulebook, under the paragraph "removing casualties" makes it pretty clear that you remove whole models where possible, and thus could not distrubute wounds across an entire unit of multiwound models.

That particular entry is in the shooting section, although in the HTH section, the "removing casualties" paragraph says that close combat casualties are removed in the same way as shooting.


One more thing;
I just remembered another magic item that the ogres get - Hellheart. It's expensive and butcher-only, but it can be used once in any magic phase to cause spells to miscast on any DOUBLE, with mages rolling on the (rather nasty) gut magic miscast table rather than the normal one. It is only one magic phase, but if you plan on taking the ogres down with magic, losing a single phase (or a few mages if you're mad enough to try casting something) would be devastating to your plans.

Moral of the story - don't focus on magic if you want to take care of an ogre infestation. ;)
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Post by Walrusm3 »

Oh thanks for pointing that out like these ogre players have being thrashing us with multi wound. Yea thanks for the advice though but the problem is that I don't have calvary. (Too (bleep)ing expensive), but keep the advice coming because I do think they will be very useful.
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Post by Anarchistica »

Dranthar wrote:Army builder isn't entirely reliable for rules. There are always a few mistakes here and there, and the ogre one would be one of them. All ogres definitely cause fear. There's no question about it.

No, it's right there on the splash screen that no one reads. I'll remove the "causes fear" from non-DOW Maneaters to avoid further confusion... :roll:
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Post by Banshee »

Thanee wrote:Ok, here's an example. A 4-wide unit of bulls charges some witch elves and chooses to maximize their attacks. The witch elf champion issues a challenge in order to protect her unit from casualties. Against the unit, there are 12 attacks from the bulls, 6 hit, and 4 wound. Against the hag, there are 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, and 1.66 wounds. Assuming the witch unit was deployed wide instead of in ranks, you could have 10 witch elves in contact with the ogres. So 5 models attacking back is 15 attacks, 10 of those are hits and including poison, 5 of them are wounds.

So before things like banners, ranks, outnumbering, etc, its a pretty closely matched fight. And in the next round, things will get ugly for the ogres when the witches fight first with 30 attacks.

I'm quite sure about the fact that if there is a challenge between two units only the two characters involved fight - and not the remaining troopers. ;) So without having the bigger bonus from ranks/standard... you will lose by 1 or 2 points which makes your witch elves lose their frenzy.
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Post by General chaos »

It is simple to kill ogres. All you do is swamp them with dark elf warriors! It's fun.
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Post by Tege »

I've only faced OK once, and we couldn't finish(too little time), but anyway heres how I ended after turn one:
I started turn 2 (we didn't play it.) so my witch elves where in charge range of his bulls with only ogre club, my CoK's had overrunned the leadbelchers into the buthcer behind. his only units other than that was 1maneater w/bruiser and gnoblars. I had a RBT an 2 groups of 10 rXb. he was dead.
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Post by Lexy »

@Dranthar:Hellheart is referred to as all butchers.
Not all mages, so your mage is probably gone, but his mages get a penalty too.

@Banshee: Challenges ar combats within combats, so champions or characters fight other champions or characters and the units still fight, but with one less model.

Witchelves on 1 rank is stupid, they are too easy to lure in some kind of trap due to frenzy, and then the witch elves are out of the line.

Best units to put up against ogres (though I play against them tomorrow ) are:
Mengil and his friends
RBT's
Rxb's ( more hits is also good.)
chariots ( watch out, that Iron guts aren't S7)
CoK's with a character.

What a pretty need trick is against his magic, is use your dispell face for blocking the panic test and the bone crusher.
Use your lone mage for dispelling his magic face:
Let him make a spell, get it, take the wound and dispell his spell and he got a wound
Same sort of tip, I saw before.

Ow and Ogres do cause fear.
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