+++ The 7th Ed Thread +++

[Vradek (ex pandemonio)]

Okay, after some discussion, and a great suggestion from Eldacar we are gonna have this as the only 7th Ed thread. This for all your rumours, dreams, desires and what ever else you feel you need to say with reguard to the new 7th Ed rules. Basically, we want to keep the number of rumour threads down to one, this one, this sticky. So please feel free to rumour away. This is the place.

Now then, I belive Vardek has summit to say...

RasputinII


I know that this topic has already been brought up,but I wanted to have a little more info on what this new edition is going to be like.
Are there gonna be new models coming out (wy should I spend money on models now if a new line is gonna come out)?
What is going to be updated?

If anybody knows anything could you please tell me?

[Soulreaper]

anything anyone can tell you as of this presetn time is only going to be rumors... GW has a few playtesters (we have at least one here on druchii.net that is currently playtesting) that are currently trying out the new rules. but as of yet not even those rules are official. and since GW probably haven't finished their rules yet, they can't, and we can't give you any information about it sadly. I'm very curious myself.

however there will most likely be at least a few models being redone and some being released for most races. this I am 95% sure of. (I mean after all, most lines still have very old models that really aren't looking very good compared to the newer ones.. dark riders come to mind as being metal and very static... and of course expensive)

but I don't think anyone, even the GW staff could give you any final answers to this as things are atm.

[Rasputinii]

The only thing that one can know with any certainty that can be posted is that most (if not all) the armies are being redone for 7th, which means a new book and like with the dwarves new rules and new models. As for what they are, you will have to wait and see.

Soulreaper: There are lots of external playtesters on Druchii.net, but most don't openly say they are...

Ras

[Soulreaper]

I figured as much.. but I only know of one so i said at least one.. (I won't name names since he/she might get bombarded with questions if I do )

[Langmann]

The other thing is that GW has not released their final version to the playtesters so even if certain people do know the rules that they tested, they don't really know the final outcome anyhow.

So therefore no-one can know for sure.

[Seanzala]

Well, last night, my local GW manager said that he could tell us one thing, and I think that most people here will find this VERY comforting.

Second Sign will not be the first spell in Heavens magic!!!!

Sean

[Underway]

I have collected a few rumours mostly from other websites on possible changes.

-mages will only be allowed to use the dice they generate plus pool dice.

-magic lores will be rewritten so they are more balanced, there will be less magic missile spells and spells will focus more on supporting your own army in creative ways.
...see Lore of Loren for a good example on which way they would like to go.

-tweeks to the weapons rules, things like AP for halberds and that characters cannot use two handed weapons while mounted.

-tonnes of different rumours about fast cav and skirmisher changes ranging from skirmishers "fear" ranked units to fast cav will no longer eliminate rank bonus though there are lots that deny these as well

-ranks will have to be 5 models wide or sumsuch

-psychology changes

Most of these rumours can be found at www.warseer.com or www.warhammer.org.uk, thats where I trawl for the best ones.

Lots of crazy things flying around, it's tough to figure out whats what and there are plenty of conflicting rumours as well.

[Seanzala]

Well, I head that last one straight from the Manger, so I trust that one more than others

Sean

[Underway]

Don't trust anyone who works in a GW shop. Managers and redshirts just like to screw with younger customers especially and they don't necessarily have better info than someone who read rumours on the web.

As a matter of fact the managers in my area get all their rumours from warseer and myself!!

[Langmann]

Well, I head that last one straight from the Manger, so I trust that one more than others

Sean

Managers of stores know jack all. The main reason is because they open their big mouths all the time, the fact that he said something is proof of why GW refrains from letting them know anything.

[Muse of harganeth]

Games workshop is one company that keeps it's card close to there chests.
You won't get much infomation untill one or two months till it is released.
These playtesters, and the managers still don't give you anything, and the one on this site, which i'm sure there is one, even though i don't know how SR knows anyway, won't let on.
The tester on this site, don't tell anything!

[Dyvim tvar]

The other thing is that GW has not released their final version to the playtesters so even if certain people do know the rules that they tested, they don't really know the final outcome anyhow.

Langmann is right -- the final rules are in the can and getting ready for print, but even the playtesters don't know what they are. Although the outside playtesters probably have a pretty good idea of the changes to come, they don't know what tweaks the design team made at the end of the playtest period. I'm sure there will be some surprises even for the playtesters.

[Prince of arnheim]

Fast Calvary- It would make sense to me that only 5 or 6 FC would not be able to cancel ranks...i mean if you invisioned 5 horsemen chargin the flank of a 20 strong INFANTRY block it would just look silly to see the INFANTRY scatter away like they were skirmishers, I think this rumour is definelty true. I also think that they will make so that if there is more than one rank i.e. a unit of 10 or more then they will be able to bust ranks up.....but not if it is a light missle harassing type unit.....

5 for a rank as opposed to 4.......this is a big one if it's true....there will be lot's of people mad about this one..due to alot of 4 multiples armies like Lizardmen Saurus and Ogre Kingdoms,...even Dwarf players like to use 4 in a rank .....and the fact that all the new plastic box sets are in Multiples of 8 or 16 makes this rumour seem untrue to me.....could be though....It would make sense when you envision it.... if you only 4 in a rank and you are charged and just one model is killed,....it would leave quite a dent in your regiment....if you imagine...because there would only be couple of models behind to cover..so 5 is a much more suitable rank number as it leaves more troops in the next rank to move forward. I hope that if they do this then it is so simple...because units like Saurus work best in ranks of 4 because of their extra attacks and costs.


....I think the envisioning of these rule changes really make sense when you think about them....

5 Skirmishers lurking the woods while a big block of troops marches by....they would not run out and charge at them! they owuld sit back and pick them off.......they would fear them unless immune to psychology like wardancers...

Heavy Cavalary....I imagine Knights with big long lances on the charge and I see them needing to get alot of speed.....plus it takes a few moments for the knights to actually lower their lances due to their weight....I agree with this rule change if it happens...makes perfect sense...HC that is 5 inches away would probably not be able to use their lances effectively enough as their momentum would be lesser...which is what gives them their strength in the first place.....

Halberds....AP -1, sure why not, makes sense as halberds are a combination of GW and Spear in one.....

Great Weapons not being useable on a mount....meeh I think that isn't that far fetched....this is Warhammer.....a big ass Chaos Lord should be able to use a GW on a Chaos Steed....an Empire Templar should be able to wield a big hamma!!! I think alot of people will have to throw too many models away if they do this.......I could care less either way... as i'm an elf....maybe a model should only be able to use it on the charge...when they get stuck in and their horse is reering around it would be difficult to use so I am neutral on this one.....

Hand Weapon and Shield....+1SAVE for WS 4....makes sense to me as the troops with low Initiative usually have low WS like goblins, skinks, skaven,undead....not like elves and chaos warriors...makes perfect sense.....I see this one happenning....so take those units of 40 instead of 25 now goblin players! Atleast you will be able to control where your fanatics go from now on !

Missle Troops! I think all Missle Troops should get to shoot in 2 ranks! I also think it might not work for some races that are stubby or fat...like Dwarves and Ogres....and short like Goblins and Skaven.....hmmmm maybe just for all Elves then eh?



Power Dice....I totally agree with the idea of magic models only using their own power dice......this prevents lesser wizards from suddenly shocking an opponent with Conflaguration of Doom!!! Damn SKink Priest!!!

I don't agree with them taking the character out of the 8 Lores...Rumour has it that they will be following a simliar guideline as the Lore of Athel Loren.....which is mostly about supporting troop movement and harassing your oppenents with not so much emphasis on destruction.....this is one thing I didnt like about the latest edition compared to 5 Ed...the magic is just so much more boring.... I hope they do not do this....but it could add more strategic value to the game.....maybe it would get rid of cheap armies like gunliners and all cav. death chargers....you know what i'm saying....

[The liger]

Well, I'll put down the ones that I know, and apparently they are true (and written?) Some may be strange, but bear with me.

First, ones that were apparently dropped:

No changes to weapon rules whatsoever really, not Hw+shields, or spears, or halberds. Only one AFAIK, and that's Gw only give +1S when mounted (not sure if this includes chariots). I suppose not much here, just Crimson Death becomes a slightly better choice than before, then DoDP for an upgrade, and GoP for an upgrade on that.

As for magic, I think it's probably the widest known area of change. No more battery mages, and a meaner miscast table. Some lores getting toned down too, while others getting slightly toned up IIRC.

Now, on to changes that I have heard. 2 big ones really (PoA has got them actually). Fast cavalry don't negate ranks, and 5 wide is a rank. Many won't believe this, I'm sure, but all the same, I think they're true (mostly), and I'll discuss them nontheless.

Fast cavalry don't negate ranks. For Druchii, this is a pretty large blow IMO. DR are great for those long distance charges into a flank, and now, their uses are slightly more limited somewhat. Same goes for Mounted Daemonettes as well, and IMO, this is even worse for them. I don't think this is a horrific change, but personally, I don't like it. Then again, of course I'm biased, having light TK chariots and DR! Oh well, just slightly more limited DRs, and Hydras, CoKs and monster mounted characters (perhaps character chariots etc) get a tiny boost, not much though.

Now the other one, and IMO the biggest change, perhaps too big. 5 models are needed for a rank. This could be a discussion in itself. It also seems very iffy. 20 models are needed for a full unit, while 15 is for slightly less, and 25 gives you a rank's insurance. However, they sell the new Dwarfs in 8 or 16 I believe, yet they were apparently made for 7th Ed. I would be interested to see if anyone could get the numbers for the O&G (and Dwarfs) in the starter set, because if they are in multiples of 5 (unlikely though, but 20 could be possible for both editions) then it might prove this rumour. Anyway, enough on that, let's just say that this rumour is true (we can still debate whether it is or isn't, but I'll say for this post it is). Firstly, what does this do to the game. Big units are slightly less effective IMO, and the general frontage expands. It also adds a bit more variety to the game, because instead of the constant +5 for 3 ranks, standard and outnumber, now you could get 20, 15 or even 18 models, all of which could be effective, depending on the army and player's choice. Perhaps this adds more variety.

Now, the big question is, what does this do for Dark Elves? Well, firstly, I suppose big units are almost gone. 20 models at least for +5, and even then you only get one model insurance. IMO, for Druchii and Asur probably as well, MSU will rise. Large spearblocks will either be replaced altogether for Rxbow versatile units, or for 12 Spearmen, or 10 naked bait. Perhaps more variety will come in as well, because spearmen may well now be used in smaller units, and therefore the competition between them and corsairs may rise, depending on whether you want a slightly better save (or even extra attacks when charged) or better shooting save and more attacks, but for more points (not that many more though, only about 20-30 per unit).

So, if there is a rise of MSU, what does this give us? Well, since the basic frontage has expanded by at least 1 model, we can now even go for frontages of 7, or up to 8 against large based models! Seven or eight witches in combat, imagine the carnage! Also, COKs will be able to go 6 wide, meaning 5 + Hero is just slightly more useful. However, this does open up a tactical debate, I think - Is there a point where you can go too far. Is 7 wide simply too much, making units not manoeuverable enough, or not able to flank properly? Are the extra attacks worth it. Now more than ever, ranks aren't really that useful, except for the odd one in a 15 strong unit, but not really necessary. Well, hopefully (for some) this rule will be true, and we can have some good old debates around it.

Well that's it I think. You may think they're not true, and I don't know whether they are either, but the source is pretty reliable I think, and so I think we can at least start thinking about these changes (just not let ourselves get carried away with them). Phew, it's over!

[Venkh]

Oh dear, this is all very worrying.

With the exception of the proposed changes to magic, all the rumors i have heard from Warseer etc have been bad news for my dark elves.

Hopefully we will get un-nerfed a year into 7th ed with a new book.

[Yakra]

I hope some kind of counter charge rule will show up! That would have been very cool... For example: I don't really think that cavalry would hold their ground if another unit charges it. Unless they are very close...

[Vorchild]

Yeah, most of these rumours I'm hoping aren't true. I have armies that are designed with 4 frontage (saurus in that case) a lot of armies with fast cav - and they'd be totally nerfed by not letting them negate ranks. They'd be almost totally useless at that point for their cost. 127 pts for a unit of DR that now does what? Kills units of archers and war machines and nothing else?

On the subject of rankes though, the new dwarf warriors are pictured 4 wide, which woudl indicate that the rules for them would not require 5 wide frontage for ranks (they can't really change the pictures now since the boxes are already made and mass produced).

Some thing are just silly. I know the empire players have been wanting armour piercing halbers for some time now, despite how the idea makes 0 sense fluffwise. What I've been saying for what is actually years now is to bring back the rules that had them fighting in 2 ranks. No S4 for the back rank, but still, highly useful. The rules existed for warhammer quest and they worked well.

No great weapons for mounted models also makes no sense and would be completely irresponsible given that there are a few great weapon cavalry units out there like questing knights. They may not be all that popular, but to make them all into conversion pieces is a little harsh.

Skirmishers fearing ranked units would also piss me off. I mean, that's what they are designed to do historically are they not? To engage and rough up an enemy line a little bit? Get in their face, pull them out of line so the infantry can have an easily time at it? Also, it would make my Eshin army completely useless.

I'm still looking forward to 7th ed, but all the rumour flyign around are making it more and more a horde infantry army, which I don't think is nearly as creative or fun. If it goes that way, I'll just have to assemble my Orcs.


EDIT: Just to add, I'd be more than pleased if instead of negating ranks, they gave fast cav the ability to hit and run. If they take away rank negation, they've gt to give them something right?

[Frijoles negros]

It isn't really the druchii that the removal of rank-negating fast cav ruins, it's asrai. The only units they have that can flank decently (other than a treeman or dragon) are wild riders and glade riders. You don't want glade guard flanking, eternal guard usually shouldn't be, and treekin are too wide to.

It's fine with me if they hit magic and heavy cav (which they should over fast cav) hard, but fast cav and infantry isn't nice. They're just boosting the effictiveness of horde armies, which aren't bad as-is. Elite infantry needs a boost in general, as do halberds and spears.

5-wide infantry will mean me dropping the idea of 16-strong spearmen and going back to 12. If the fast cav rumors are true, unless they get something that makes up for the loss, my dark riders will become DoW heavy cav.

As for the new dark elf book, AFAIK it's set for sometime 2008.

[The liger]

The 5 wide rank is very wierd, and a massive change really, and it will affect the game quite a bit IMO. However, though it might not be true, since the Dwarfs haven't changed, but then again, if it means GW sells more models then it's all fine for them! I suppose if it happens, and GW don't change their infantry sets perhaps Ebay will get a boost in sales, since no one is going to want to get an additional sprue just for 4 models off the online store.

As for fast cavalry, I agree with Maedhros, it buggers Asrai a bit, but personally, I'm not sure it's a massive change (except maybe for wood elves). The thing I'm seeing (rather worryingly perhaps) is that all of this doesn't really affect Dwarfs too much. They are already considered to be almost too powerful by some players, and none of the changes really affect them. 5 wide doesn't matter for 10 wide gunlines. No magic for Dwarfs anyway, and no cavalry/fast cavalry either. Ok, so skirmishers (possibly) are a little more immune to war machine fire, but other than that, they are all fine, while some other armies get penalised for it.

Oh well, I suppose we can just hope that the changes don't come around, but perhaps they will. Just hold on until 2008 I suppose...

[Wakshaani]

Variant Army Lists.

Snagging the book and browsing a bit, I came up with eight cities, plus Albion, that you could base our army lists for. It could be short, half-page write-ups, or, it could be a subset of the Prince ... Give him a Royal Bloodline and now the army is composed like Y instead of X.

At any rate, the flavor, and composition I'd suggest, follows:

Ghrond

While several magic items are named for this city, there are no units mentioned who call it home, nor are there and rivalries mentioned. As such, Ghrond becomes the 'Generic' Dark Elf force. If you don't take a Bloodline/Variant, you run this. This would basicly be the list that we have now, modified by whatever winds up falling out of 7th edition.

Naggarond

The Bossman's Private Force, and home of the Black Guard. I'd move the Black Guard up to a Special, rather than Rare, slot, and remove the 0-1 limit as well. In return, due to the current falling out with mom, I'd remove all Witch Elves from his list, as well as the Blood Cauldron.

Karond Kar

Beasties! The city of Beastmasters, Karond Kar's list is a Harpy Party, with the 0-1 limitation yoinked. I'd push the Cold One Knights to a Core selection (egads!), pushing the Corsairs down to Special. Hydras would probably be Special as well, which would cause another unit or two (Witches again?) to go down a step. For bonus fun, allowing a Rare-choice Manticore with no rider could get ugly.

Har Ganeth

Executioners. Making them a core choice sounds like crazy talk, but, it could happen. You'd have to push something major back, like the Dark Riders themselves, and possibly Corsairs as well. But Core Executioners? Mmmm...

Hag Graef

Not doing so well since Mama turned, this is, obviously, where the Witch Elves play. An option for Witch Elf Lord and Witch Elf Heroes, obviously, and move Witch Elves to Core. Corsairs and Dark Riders would, again, both be pushed back to Special selections, while Black Guard are unavailable. Probably no Sorceresses (eep!), but Assassins would step in.

Easily the trickiest list to make and the one that'd take the most eyeballing.

Gar Karond

Core Shades, which, as usual, cast the Corsairs to a Special choice. Not sure what else, if anything, would be done here.

Arnheim

Nothing whatsoever is ever mentioned for this place. Since Ghrond is the 'Standard Issue' force, I'd put tHIS one as the naval force, pushing Corsairs, Harpies (No 0-1 limitation) and maybe moving the RBT to Special as well... it's mentioned as a naval battery, after all. Unsure what would, in turn, be plucked from the list. Chariots and Cold Ones in general seem to hop up front, but, I'm not sure.

Albion

The only list that has a BIG change, Albion produces Dark Emissaries (And Fenbeasts?), Giants, and who KNOWS what else. This one'd be probably two pages, to list everything. Has the most potential to shake the rafters.

Should the Cult of Slaanesh be included as well?

Hmm...

[Artemis entreri]

Im really not looking forward to the changes at all. It could really do some serious damage to my army setup and stategy. The last thing i want to hear is that the fast cav will loose their ability to negate ranks, thats what they are there for! But the skirmishers being afraid of rank units... i dont know. It doesnt make any sense to me, but maybe their trying to knock the skinks down a notch, as their are much too good for their cost.

[The liger]

@Wakshaani: I think this thread is more for what will actually happen in terms of 7th Edition in general, but anyway...if you think that will happen to Druchii when the book gets redone, I suppose so...

Clar Karond is the raiding city btw, so corsairs are high up there. Hag Graef has a large supply of Cold Ones. Ghrond is mainly a watchtower garrison (less corsairs I'd say), but with Hellebron there, lots of Witches I'd say. Lots of Sorcs here too. Arnhelm/Arnheim is an Asur city I'm afraid! Only 6 Druchii cities on Naggaroth.

[Cenyu]

Uhm, Waakshani, how firm are you with the Dark Elf background? Many of your proposals make little sense.

Karond Kar is THE city of Corsairs - it is the port where all raiding fleets have to pass by so Corsairs should be really common there.

Arnheim is a High Elf outpost so a Druchii variant for this city is completely out of place.

Hag Graef holds no special value to the Temple of Khaine compared to the other five cities.

Just to name a few points.

[Fingol darkwater]

Waakshani, I hate to make this seem like everyone is attacking you, but you need to realize that Naggaroth is NOT Ulthuan. It is not a collection of several kingdoms that just happen to follow one king, Naggaroth is one kingdom. Therefore, city variant lists are quite unnecessary. If a dark elf noble has the money, he can easily purchase a hydra regardless of where he lives. Know what I mean? It would be very unusual to see witch elves fighting in bulk in a magic heavy army because of the fued however. So there are certain background factors to keep in mind, but actuall variant lists like the kind you've proposed are not necessary.

[Celius]

along the lines of the missile units shooting in two ranks, couldn't it be Xbowmen as two ranks due to their relatively compact size and easy shootability and have bows or maybe just longbows shooting in one rank and upgrading them, or have second rank shooting with an additional modifier