Tactics Question of the Week #3

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights

So what, in general, do you suppose to be the best plan?

Poll ended at Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:25 pm

Attack the closest skinks with both DR units and sorceress
0
No votes
Attack the closest skinks with both DR units, but relocate sorceress to the center
5
45%
Withdraw from this flank entirely
6
55%
 
Total votes: 11

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Lakissov
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Tactics Question of the Week #3

Post by Lakissov »

The links to previos Tactics Question of the Week threads can be found here:
#2: http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=60625
#1: http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=60560

As Azure hasn't posted any question, I'll post mine instead - this is an initiative for any volunteer, anyway.

So, here is the situation to tackle:
Image
And a snapshot of the whole table, as that might prove valuable.

Here, we have a battle of light troops - in fact, the units shown on the map occupy a bit more than 1/4 of the table width - on the right flank (as viewed by the druchii player). The situation shown is after turn 1 of the lizardmen player, who went first.

All skinks shown have blowpipes.
The dark riders have no shooting weapons.

The sorceress is Level 2 with tome and scroll, and she rolled chillwind, word of pain and black horror. The lizardman player has 7 DD and at least 2 scrolls, and the dark elf player has a Level 4 with bound PoD staff. The magic is very much needed in the center of the field, where the dark elf units are in danger from potential salamander shooting next turn (this was a game played against old lizards).

Really, no forces can be spared by the druchii general to support this flank - and the center of the battlefield would benefit greatly from the presence of a unit of dark riders and a sorceress.

The right skinks are approximately 11" from the sorceress, and can't at the moment be seen by any druchii units. The top skinks are blocked away from the Dark Riders by the hill, and can't be seen even if the dark riders move to the top of their own hill.

So, how would you manoeuvre the forces on you right flank in this situation, so as to minimize losses, apply maximum pressure on the magic defense and get your dark riders to a position where they can assist the rest of the army?
Last edited by Lakissov on Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Geoguswrek »

if i am right in assuming the rightmost border is the table edge:
the level 2 would leave the DR, on unit would sit about 7" away from the flanking skinks, and facing, which should prevent them from escaping a charge (and thereby forces them to shoot the dr) i'd move the other unit further away, angled such that if the leftmost skinks come over the hill i can see them (and i'd endeavour to be out of range for a move and shoot - im pretty sure i can do this) while still being able to see some of the right skinks if the other DR unit panic and flee (or are charged - you never know).
That leaves the sorc who would line up along the rightmost table edge to see some skinks from the rightmost unit, while remaining outside shot range of said skinks.
Since its turn 1 and my opponent doesn't know what is in my list, i'd try to cast PoD from my level 2, if it goes off i'll hope to get two spells off (chillwind + word of pain probably) and then leave the PoD staff till the end of the phase, and use it to try to cast a little spell (chillwind at salamanders) at the end of the phase.
that should get me a skink unit in the second turn and leave me with a little bit of a DR unit to go annoying with, and a full unt + sorc to deal with the second skinks.
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Post by Sulla »

Seems the DE have been suckered into an unfavourable deployment. Light cav and a fragile 'caster vs massed light shooting. How to get the best out of it?

Questions first.

1)How much anti magic is the lizard player likely to have?
And related,

2)Are you likely to get any magic off with the sorceress?

If she is likely to get shut down (no other DE magic users, scroll fanatic opponent etc) then she is wasted on that flank and should straight away retreat to the centre of your army.

As i see it, she is the weakest link on that side of the table because she is a focal point for enemy shooting. one failed panic test and her unit is likely gone.

If you are likely to get a bit of magic off, I might be tempted to move both units in a wall a couple of inches away from the closest skink unit with a view to a)charging them next turn, and b) stopping them moving behind your lines. Not without risks, of course. You will take a pounding on your sorc's unit in the shooting phase if you don't get magic off, but you guarantee a charge on the skinks next turn with the survivors (probably with both units and too close for stand and shoot.
In the magic phase, I would try to cast power of darkness with her 2 dice. If it goes through, word of pain with all the PoD dice (since it's harder to cast than chillwind) then chillwind on the same unit with the army dice or use them for any other sorc's on the field if word gets through.

Personally, if I didn't have magic superiority, I'd just concede that flank and reposition toward the centre where they can be more use.
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Post by Lakissov »

@sulla:
to answer your question about the magic defense and offense that you and your opponent have:
Druchii have in total two mages: L4 with PoD staff and pendant on pegasus and this L2 with tome and scroll on steed; also I forgot to mention that the army features an assassin with ahw, +d3A, manbane and bound Steed of Shadows
The Lizards have 7DD and at least two scrolls (the army includes a slann, so +1 to dispel attempts, too).
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Post by The golden arrow »

I'd move both units 18" towards the middle and have one unit looking at each skink unit to guard the flanks. Then have the sorceress leave the unit (well away from skinks and the slann) and cast her magic as the other suggested.
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Post by Riker666 »

I'd retreat them abusing the hill to avoid los. Magic is too risky and dr too fragile for the job. The sorc unit can move to see your opponent's edge, while the other can look directly to the hill, to charge the skinks if they get close.
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Post by No one »

movement:
I'd move both DR units to the left, the one with the lvl 2 stays a bid behind, enough to be able to shoot/magic the closest unit of skinks but far enough to be out of range for both of them, the other unit heads for middle of the table or tries to kill a few skinks in the other unit while staying out of blowpipe range.
magic:
the lvl 4 starts with PoD, then all spells but chillwind (and maybe another one), then the lvl 2 tries PoD, tries to cast WoP on the closest skink unit, then cast chillwind on them, then the lvl 4 uses PoD (if you have 4 dice then throw 2 on chillwind and 2 on the other spell) finally your lvl 2 may attempt BH (if you still go some dice) and then the assasin uses steed of shadows. (I never used magic so this might be very stupid)
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Post by 22over7 »

A few assumptions I need to make, not completely sure on the rules :(. Skinks with BPs can move and shoot and have an 8" range?

Ok, I really want to avoid my Sorceress unit being shot at so I need to stay 14+" (6 move + 8 range) away from both units of skinks. cMiddle left should do it on the edge of the quarter. With Sorceress on the right of the unit (top per picture) to have LoS to the top skinks. My other unit I would position on the bottom hill facing towards the right table edge, so that they can charge the advanced skinks next turn, where ever they move.

With 7DD and 2Scrolls (and the magic really being needed in the centre), I want my sorceress to try and draw out DD or scrolls, so I would use her 2dice to cast PoD, this will likely use up 2DD and give my level 4 a fighting chance, otherwise I would depending on the roll, be casting WoP and Chillwind on a combination of 2+0 or 2+1 or 2+2 respectively against the two different skink units.
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Post by Lakissov »

A small clarification ragarding blowpipes: they have range 12", and the multiple shots x2 rule, and poison, but they do suffer from long range, movement and multiple shot penalties, and the skinks are only BS3 (so when multishooting at long range after movement, they need 7s to hit, and hence poison doesn't work => at long range, they don't usually multishoot, hence hitting and autowounding on 6s)
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Post by Ehakir »

I would retreat from that flank. You will need the Dark Riders in the centre, and as it is turn 1, you will have enough time to deal with them later. Place the Sorceress within 24" of one unit of skinks, march the Dark Rider units to the rest of the army. Place the harpies you have deployed behind the wood behind the crossbowmen to allow you to charge the skinks if they come to close (BS 3, being charged, over half range, skirmish (double shots) = 7+/8+ to hit..., no poison anymore :P).

Magic: Cast Chillwind as your first spell with the Lvl 2. Your enemy might want to dispell it, but he will know that your Lvl 4 will get to magic as well. He will wage his risks and probably attempt to dispel. If you spell goes through, it is very good, if it doesn't, it means that your SS has less DD to mind. Use Power of Darkness first, as it might net you more dice to cast (so use your 2 dice to cast PoD, then use the PoD dice to cast your spell). This might even make your enemy attempt to dispel both spells.
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Post by Sulla »

Lakissov wrote:@sulla:
to answer your question about the magic defense and offense that you and your opponent have:
Druchii have in total two mages: L4 with PoD staff and pendant on pegasus and this L2 with tome and scroll on steed; also I forgot to mention that the army features an assassin with ahw, +d3A, manbane and bound Steed of Shadows
The Lizards have 7DD and at least two scrolls (the army includes a slann, so +1 to dispel attempts, too).


The assassin is probably the clincher for me then. I'd retreat the sorc from that flank because she will get shut down anyway (probably the only really important magic of the phase) and you will need her later on to generate enough pressure to get off the assassin's flying trick.

If you still want to hunt the skinks, do as I said earlier; a wall of both units side by side to trap the closests unit (no gap between them to squeeze through and not enough room to outflank so the skinks will get charged unless theywipe one out and the other panics).

But I would seriously consider retreating both DR units toward the centre. Vs your opposition, my favoured roles for them would be traditional bait and flee and using their impressive charge arc as a zone denial vs things like the flyers (probably too far away to do this but depends how the battle goes).

As an aside, are those your skirmishers behind the left flank rock? If so, they are probably easy points for those terradons; man those things hurt skirmishers!
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Post by Lakissov »

yup, behind the rock are harpies (2 units), and they are to be used for redirecting stuff in the center.

or do you think that a more reasonable plan would be to get harpies to the right flank instead of the DR and get the DR into the center?
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Post by Master of arneim »

Mmmm... it seems that you really positioned your units very badly.

First of all I would control the movement of the skinks on the right... it seems hard to me that they got so far with only 12" (I'm referring to the photo you linked). In this postion, being only the first turn, they should be 12" from your deployment zone (so more than 12" from your drs). In my opinion, assuming your deployment zone ending where there are all your units in the middle, they moved about 20".

Now, considering that they've moved correctly (imho this is impossible) I'd position both my drs so that they would be able to charge the skinks on the right, staying about 15" away from them (at least more than 12"), maybe moving them towards the centre (be sure to avoid the other skinks behind the hill) but always facing those skinks on the right.
You could even leave the drs with your sorceress, positioning her in the unit near the pegasus (xbows I think).
That way, if the opponent moves his skinks to fire on your drs he should get (being away 15") long, move, multiple, so hitting on 7+ or 6+ with only 10 shots. If you move well you could get near to your general, passing the eventual panic check at 9. The next turn you should be able to charge with both the units, or simply rotate your xbows(?) trying to panic those nasty frogs.
Last edited by Master of arneim on Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sulla »

Lakissov wrote:yup, behind the rock are harpies (2 units), and they are to be used for redirecting stuff in the center.

or do you think that a more reasonable plan would be to get harpies to the right flank instead of the DR and get the DR into the center?
Not neccessarily. I just had visions of the terradons flying over them and wiping them out in one go with their rocks, but they are about as good as the DR for disruption and not all that much more survivable to skink shooting either (mainly due to worse Ld when it comes to panic tests).

Knowing that, I'd probably just strip the sorc out of the DR and let them go skink hunting. If the sorc joins what looks like archers on the right centre, she can still chillwind the skinks if they come too close but also play a bigger role in the main battle.

In future though, I would probably pair the harpies and a unit of dark riders rather than 2 units of dark riders. As you can see from your dilemma, if a unit of DR are weak vs something, often 2 units are as well.
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Post by Lakissov »

Nice thoughts there. One more comment to explain the situation:
- The skinks on the right are scouts, and in the beginning of the game they were hidden behind the hill which is further away from the Druchii deployment zone - hence they were able to march to the position where they are.

As for the way to go against skinks - I personally agree that the most reasonable thing actually is to move both DR units against skinks, staying more than 12" away, and not letting them avoid the charge next turn. And of course, the L2 doesn't need to be on this flank - she might just be repositioned to the center right away.
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Post by Master of arneim »

- The skinks on the right are scouts, and in the beginning of the game they were hidden behind the hill which is further away from the Druchii deployment zone - hence they were able to march to the position where they are.


This is what I thought, but still from the hill to their final position they travelled a lot. I think it depends on where was their exact position, but I don't want insist anymore. One question for me: why did you put your harpies behind the wood? What was your fear?
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Post by Lakissov »

My fear was magic. I saw that there is a slann, and a skink priest. And the Druchii army in this setup only has 5 DD and one DS (and it's not a good idea to durn it on turn one).
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Post by Master of arneim »

I don't know if the slaan is a big target, but if it isn't you could have put your harpies right in the back of those coks, gaining some inches to be nearer to the enemy...
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Post by Lakissov »

Back in that edition, slann was a large target, and even in new edition of lizardmen he counts as a large target for the purposes of his own spellcasting, so to screen anything from him, one needs to use terrain.
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Post by Kaleth darkblade »

i would move my DR around the left side of the rock, this means the skinks don't have LOS to them leaving your DR riders free to move around. (i would move them towards the center) and no, your harpies shouldn't get anywhere near skinks, they will get blowpiped to death.

and for the rest, blowpipes have a range of 12 inch
with 2x multiple shot and poisoned attacks, so they are really dangerous to the DR, get them out of there, if you hang around you're looking at a potential 40 poisoned shots! if you charge one of the units they wil flee, and play the bait tactic on you

try casting some less important spells first, and if you've the chance, cast chillwind on the skinks, this can really decimate them and leaving them useless next turn as they can't shoot.
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Post by Ehakir »

your harpies shouldn't get anywhere near skinks, they will get blowpiped to death.

Not true: If you stay within 20 inch and outside 18 inch, the enemy will not be able to walk and shoot you, and you will be able to charge in the next turn. He will stand and shoot:
-1 for over half range
-1 for being charged
-1 for skirmish
(-1 for multiple shots)

Skinks have BS 3, so they hit naturally on 4's. If they do not take the multiple shots, they will hit on 7's, hitting maybe once, probably not wounding at all. You will have 10 attacks on his skinks hitting on 4's (I believe Skinks are WS 3?), killing on 4's = 2-3 wounds. He will strike back with 4-5 attacks, hitting 2, wounding 1. You will win the fight with a +1, and the skinks with the LD 5 will probably break. Ok. Next turn your harpies might be toasted, but well, they have earned their points back ;)
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Post by Guardian112 »

Harpies are strength 3 and skinks are toughness 2 so they'd actually be wounding on 3's.
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Post by Ehakir »

Hehe, even better :twisted:
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Post by Lakissov »

So, it seems that the most voiced options are:
- to withdraw from this flank
- to take the sorceress away from the flank but use DR to hunt skinks
- to junt skinks with all the forces on the flank

Hunting skinks here is proposed in the following way: move the DR units together, so that they both can see the closest skink unit, and so that the skink unit can't move away from charge range. Then charge.


I think that a good way to end this thread would be to make a poll to see which of the solutions people prefer. I've just added this poll. The poll will run for three days (hence conveniently ending when the week is over)
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Post by Calisson »

The sorceress can be relocated towards the center, at 20" from the skinks behind the hill, with a LOS on the said skinks. There she can support the magic phase in the centre (or alternatively threaten the said skinks as well).

Chances that the 2 DR units will wipe away the skinks on the right are good enough to risk loosing a couple of DR. It will take 1 turn. Next, they will position to do the same on the 2nd skink unit.
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