WEs of Doom

Myelisik · Post by **Myelisik** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:24 pm

So I just joined the forum and was wondering if this unit idea has been floated around....

20 WEs full command Warbanner, Death Hag BSB w/ ASF banner. Arranged 7x3

Cauldron behind giving 5+ WS until combat where it switches to +1 attack of the target is infantry with a low save or KB if the target is armored.

The unit would have 31 poisoned attacks or 24 with KB, ASF. If ur really sneaky through an assassin in there with D3+ attacks.

The only problem i see with the unit is a gun line, but the WS should help with that, and feel 2 units of Dark Riders to go mess up the guns and i think u'd be fine. The ridiculous amount of ASF attacks should handle the rest.

Stats against elite infantry (WS 4/5, T4, 4+ AS), 6/7 Kills. These are stats against something like Chaos warriors, so that would most likely be the front rank.

Stats against elite cavalry (WS 5, T4, 1+ AS). 3 Kills. These are stats against something like Chaos nights, inner circle nights. Front rank is almost always max 5. 2 models attack back garnering 3 wounds. WEs will outnumber have 2 ranks a banner, warbanner, bsb. Knights will have a banner. WEs win combat by 5.

The only unit i see bringing doom to this unit is a Chosen Deathstar, but that can be countered with a second cauldron and an assassin inside.

Feedback?

-Myelisik

Fingol23 · Post by **Fingol23** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:39 pm

I would replace warbanner with banner of murder. And as for chaos deathstars its amazing what killing blow will do with that many attacks

.

Myelisik · Post by **Myelisik** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:16 pm

I know, i faced off against a Festus Chosen deathstar, 2 shrines, and mark of Tzeetch.

Used a Black Guard unit with ASF banner, Deathlord Executioners Axe, Assassin +D3 attacks, BSB with Hydra Banner and Kouran, ranked 7x3. 2 Cauldrons behind gave everyone +1 attack and KB. (It's illegal i know thanks for the comments, never fielded cauldrons b4 this game.)

It's amazing what 37 ASF attacks Hatred did to them in the first round of combat. Then warrior elite kicked in second round and a unit of 18 Chosen with festus and a chaos wizard were all dead.

Skilgannon · Post by **Skilgannon** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:43 pm

I ran 14 with BSB Manbane, Rune of Khaine, Man bane on the hag, Banner of Murder. It was a great unit and went through most things it kills a couple of ranks worth of stuff most of the time. Banner of Murder massively improves your odds against certain units as well so it is well worth it.

Highborn on black dragon · Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:59 pm

Just to mention - only one blessing is allowed to 1 unit, no matter how many COBs you have

Iyagd · Post by **Iyagd** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:26 pm

It is rather about Tactics. Moved.

Zardock · Post by **Zardock** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:57 pm

Yea Highborn on Black Dragon is right, you cannot use 2 CoBs to bless the same unit, even if it is a different blessing. It's right there in the AB unfortunately.

As to the OP. A smaller unit of 13 with the Death Hag BSB is just as effective, in a 7x2 formation. Less points spent on a fragile unit but the attacks dealt out is exactly the same. As for the KB blessing, never rely on it for witches as attacks that roll a 6 for poison cannot then roll for a KB.

Myelisik · Post by **Myelisik** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:07 am

yea i see that CoB thing. Anyway why not KB for witches, with 3 attacks each they can lose some to poison and still have more hits then Black guard or Executioners.

against elite inf WS5
KB 16 WE attacks 12 hit (2 lost to poison) 10 regular KB roles

+1 A 11 Exec attacks 8 hit, 8 KB roles

13 seems a little scant just cause the 5+ wardsave only goes so far.

Mangara · Post by **Mangara** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:13 am

I prefer a unit of executioners with the banner of Hag Graef as their chance to wound is twice as high as that of witch elves and they are going to destroy the armor on whatever they hit. Personally I like the unit of can openers that Execs turn into with ASF. This could just be because I like executioners so much more than witch elves but I wouldn't waste the asf banner on the unit that is striking in initiative order already and only has strength 3.

Myelisik · Post by **Myelisik** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:17 am

i completely agree that if a cauldron isn't present ASF banner better serves the Executioners, i just hate losing rank and file space to a Death Hag when she doesn't have cauldron support (yes i know give her KB with gifts but she so damn expensive and un-armored then.)

Bounce · Post by **Bounce** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:12 am

Major things to watch out for are spells which target the whole unit though like Flames of the Phoenix, Soul Stealer Black Horror etc. also Breath Templates can easily kill stacks of your witches in one go.

Even normal magic missiles will quickly reduce their effectieness.

For banners definitly the Banner of Murder and Hag Graef, this really helps against faster moving enemies or if you are baited forward due to frenzy. Armour piercing is great as so many opponents have heavy armoured infantry as well.

I dont think it was mentioned above but dont bother with a normal Hag in the unit, its not really worth the points for 1 extra attack

Myelisik · Post by **Myelisik** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:37 am

all good suggestions and all noted, unfortunately the replacements (execs and black guard) have pretty similar weaknesses :/. Hag's a good note though. I was thinking if an uber lord jumps in i may want to challenge with her. To not lose tons of models (or the bsb)

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:41 am

Bounce wrote:I dont think it was mentioned above but dont bother with a normal Hag in the unit, its not really worth the points for 1 extra attack

Does anyone ever buy a hag for the extra attack? I buy her for manbane or witchbrew...

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:10 am

Skilgannon wrote:I ran 14 with BSB Manbane, Rune of Khaine, Man bane on the hag, Banner of Murder. It was a great unit and went through most things it kills a couple of ranks worth of stuff most of the time. Banner of Murder massively improves your odds against certain units as well so it is well worth it.

Yep, drop in an assassin for a stupid number of stupidly high strength AP attacks

The wtiches are really just padding and the assassin protects against the BSB going poof in the first combat. 550 points, but it sure does hurt bad. It works fine without the assassin but the extra bang is good versus dragons and BT.

Irtehdar · Post by **Irtehdar** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:12 am

20 strong WE's? with Command? Multiple banners? Waaaay too expensive!
Yes this deathstar can do alot of harm but way too many points stuffed into way too unarmoured T3 models.
That unit costs 400 pts, is frenzy, infantry, no armour, T3 and only total 22 wounds. Thasts just begging for being shot at.

For those 400 pts Id rather buy BSB upgrade for my CoB hag, 5 Harpies, 5 DR's with Musician and RxB's, 9 WE's/Exec's and 6 Shades with GW's. And I even have 5 pts to spare.

Bounce · Post by **Bounce** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:22 am

21 Witches with Muso, Standard and Banner of Murder are only 250 points. Yes still a lot and other things may be more optimal but I think it makes for a good unit nonetheless. I think the main problem is if you start adding in the 150 point heroes into the unit, they do make it more effective but not by enough to warrant the cost.

As I said above shooting isnt too large a problem the unit can lose stacks of models and wont notice or care, to my mind its better losing models from this unit than perhaps from your much more expensive Dark Riders, Black Guard, Harpies etc.

A18no · Post by **A18no** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:49 pm

Why taking witches.. why not corsair?

Same cost, WAY more protected against shooting and magic. If you absolutly want 3 attack each, you can take the frenzy banner, if 2 attack is enough, you still take the armor piercing banner. With killing blow, you don't loose attack to poison, they don't have it. They count as core and you can use a master BSB with little armor.

Irtehdar · Post by **Irtehdar** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:00 pm

The advantage witches have is that they can withstand loosing some numbers and can go without any kind of command, magic items, characters and still be very much deadly. 90 pts of Witches is so strong that it cannot be ignored and so cheap that it shouldnt be shot at. It takes the average army 40-50 shots to stop that unit. and all that shooting poured int oa less than 100 pts unit is a waste.
For most armies those around 50 shots is ALL theyre getting to shoot against DE's. If my enemy wastes his 1 fully functionally round of shooting to get rid of my witches Ill tear his lines appart with full force from turn 2 and on. If he lets them through his biggest SCR unit will get shredded.

Its not about building a big block of über-killy-ness. Its about giving yourself the abbundance and flexibility to deny your opponent from ever using his big block of über-killy-ness. And this is exactly what witches do great. If your army supports abundance MSU.

Frostbite907 · Post by **Frostbite907** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:45 pm

I dont know why people think that you dont get killing blow when you poison. You still DO!!!! You auto wound but you still roll for the killing blow, so if you roll a 6 its a poison killing blow, if you roll a 1 its still a poison auto wound. Why would poisons nerf your unit when used with an item thats soul purpose is to buff that unit. There is a reason that witch elfs are guarding the COB its because it works best with them. You still roll the KB if you poison.

Myelisik · Post by **Myelisik** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:37 pm

can any of the rule hawks confirm this what frostbite just said? I believed that when i first started playing a few years ago, but my own understanding is that poison cancels the wounding rule, ie nurfs KB. I don't believe it makes sense, but that's how it's played.

Edited: Searched rules, issue is discussed WE + CoB thread. Frostbite is wrong.

Tzelok · Post by **Tzelok** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:37 am

Myelisik wrote:can any of the rule hawks confirm this what frostbite just said? I believed that when i first started playing a few years ago, but my own understanding is that poison cancels the wounding rule, ie nurfs KB. I don't believe it makes sense, but that's how it's played.

Edited: Searched rules, issue is discussed WE + CoB thread. Frostbite is wrong.

Dang, wish he was right, it would make much more sense!

Irtehdar · Post by **Irtehdar** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:49 pm

The only way you can do both poison and KB is by flat out ignoring straight forward writing in the rulebook. This is called cheating.

Bounce · Post by **Bounce** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:11 am

You can of course still get killing blow on all your non poisoned hits which is usually quite a few in my experiance as I can never roll 6's/

Brokenstone · Post by **Brokenstone** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:47 am

^^ would suggest that you don't get many Killing blow hits given that you don't roll 6's... I assume you just don't roll them the first time to be in such a state. I would never consider it viable to use poison and killing blow overlap myself, but that is just my hard line school of thought.