Warriors Tactics?
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- Skilgannon
- Cold One Knight
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Warriors Tactics?
I was wondering whether many of you have much experieince using multiple units of warriors as units in their own right and if anyone has tactics to share. I'm thinking of using several units of 20 along with some chariots and cold ones to offer some counter charges/speed along with a couple of fighty characters.
- Lakissov
- Malekith's Best Friend
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I have used them extensively in 6th edition, and now they have become even better. Basically, warriors are good for two things:
1. Delivering static CR. They should preferably be the ones charging, along with either a chariot, or a fighty character (it could also be an assassin). Even better, if you manage to pull off a combo-charge with something in the flank.
2. Sucking up damage. When you are up against shooting and magic, warriors are the best places for your characters, simply because it takes quite a lot of shooting/magic to actually reduce the unit enough that the characters would be in danger.
The things that warriors work best with:
- hydrae and chariots (both need to only clip the enemy unit charged, in order to deliver the full strength of their active CR)
- fighty characters and assassins (I like the latter especially; the one with ahw, KB, +d3A and re-roll 1's to wound is excellent to enable warriors to receive the charges of not extremely elite cavalry, i.e. something like our COK or VC black knights - don't do it against Khorne Knights or a bret lance, which has a lot of SCR)
1. Delivering static CR. They should preferably be the ones charging, along with either a chariot, or a fighty character (it could also be an assassin). Even better, if you manage to pull off a combo-charge with something in the flank.
2. Sucking up damage. When you are up against shooting and magic, warriors are the best places for your characters, simply because it takes quite a lot of shooting/magic to actually reduce the unit enough that the characters would be in danger.
The things that warriors work best with:
- hydrae and chariots (both need to only clip the enemy unit charged, in order to deliver the full strength of their active CR)
- fighty characters and assassins (I like the latter especially; the one with ahw, KB, +d3A and re-roll 1's to wound is excellent to enable warriors to receive the charges of not extremely elite cavalry, i.e. something like our COK or VC black knights - don't do it against Khorne Knights or a bret lance, which has a lot of SCR)
- Skilgannon
- Cold One Knight
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Yeah I like that assassin particuarly with Dark Venom as the double wounds from combat res can be really nasty and it saves 10 points. I once beat a hydra banner, bsb, lord cold one units by 3 just by challenging the lord and killing blowing him with a lone assassin (combat res 6).
What about using Warriors a little more in their own right I am thinking of having more of these units than support really. Basically probably 4 units of warriors (1 might be L4 dagger bait but I might be flexible with this) a mounted bsb and rune of khaine throwing stars assassin. 2 chariots and 5 naked cold ones backed up with a unit of harpies, a unit of dark riders, 2 bolt throwers and a L4 with dagger.
What about using Warriors a little more in their own right I am thinking of having more of these units than support really. Basically probably 4 units of warriors (1 might be L4 dagger bait but I might be flexible with this) a mounted bsb and rune of khaine throwing stars assassin. 2 chariots and 5 naked cold ones backed up with a unit of harpies, a unit of dark riders, 2 bolt throwers and a L4 with dagger.
That would make very wide & static a battleline. Would'nt you be better off with only 3 units of warriors an many more harpies/DR?Skilgannon wrote:I am thinking of having more of these units than support really. Basically probably 4 units of warriors ... 2 chariots and 5 naked cold ones backed up with a unit of harpies, a unit of dark riders, 2 bolt throwers...
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- Dyvim tvar
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The Druchii army (and most armies for that matter) works best by focusing its force. Warrior units are great for delivering static combat resolution to a fight and doing so cheaply in terms of ppoints, but if you are going to break the enemy quickly, you need to combine that with damage-dealing potential. Units of warriors therefore work well in combination with hydras, chariots, knights, and executioners. But you don't need that many ranked units of warriors -- 2 units in a 2000 point army is enough and I would never use more than 3.
One of the main mistakes people make with warrior units is thinking of them as an "anvil" unit -- expecting them to take a charge and stick around, allowing your own units to counter-charge and join the fray. This can work, but you really need to think about what enemy unit is doing the charging. Don't overestimate the capability of the warrior unit, and be willing to flee if the odds look bad. Remember, an enemy only captures a banenr if you break and flee from combat, not if he catches your unit when it flees as a charge reaction, and so a lot of time you can save 100 VPs even if your spears get caught.
Of course, having an assassin in the unit helps them take a charge and survive ...
One of the main mistakes people make with warrior units is thinking of them as an "anvil" unit -- expecting them to take a charge and stick around, allowing your own units to counter-charge and join the fray. This can work, but you really need to think about what enemy unit is doing the charging. Don't overestimate the capability of the warrior unit, and be willing to flee if the odds look bad. Remember, an enemy only captures a banenr if you break and flee from combat, not if he catches your unit when it flees as a charge reaction, and so a lot of time you can save 100 VPs even if your spears get caught.
Of course, having an assassin in the unit helps them take a charge and survive ...
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- Skilgannon
- Cold One Knight
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The fourth unit is more about dagger bait I had three but then realised the one with the dagger doesn't count as much of a combat unit i'm in half a mind to drop it down to 15 but that removes the option of using it as much of a threat against anything and it only save 30 points which would be nice for a banner but not great although with the cold one musician this would give me cold blooded and war banner/banner of murder.
I know the warriors won't take a charge against most things and often use the flee to sacrifice units as they are only 135pts but can be a pain if allowed to charge units like cavalry. There are also a couple of characters to beef units up although not massively. In fairness though warriors will take the charge of 5 flesh hounds and just about win the war of attrition if dice are even. It's not great but it is a decent gamble if needed.
I know the warriors won't take a charge against most things and often use the flee to sacrifice units as they are only 135pts but can be a pain if allowed to charge units like cavalry. There are also a couple of characters to beef units up although not massively. In fairness though warriors will take the charge of 5 flesh hounds and just about win the war of attrition if dice are even. It's not great but it is a decent gamble if needed.
i run a 30 man unit with a warbanner for sick combat rez. It's nice because 8 need to die to lose a rank. And with combat rez 6 they're hard to beat, especially for all those pesky uber lords these days. Challenge with the champion opponent maxes out at 6, your musician wins it. Don't like the 20 man blocks as much because someone shoots/casts once against them and that's all they need to drop the rank.
At 2250 i throw in the standard 'character killing' assassin, really causes headaches.
Assassin ExtraHW, +D3 Attacks, KB, Black Lotus.
At 2250 i throw in the standard 'character killing' assassin, really causes headaches.
Assassin ExtraHW, +D3 Attacks, KB, Black Lotus.
Personally I run the same choice as Myelisik: 30 Man, deployed 5 wide and 6 deep with shields, command and warbanner. I put a Dreadlord (Armor of Darkness, Pendant of Kaeleth, Soulrender) in there as well. The combat resolution of 6+ the wounds caused by the Dreadlord mainly mean a Combat Resolution of 8-11, that´s pretty hard to beat. And its very nice that 12 Warriors have to die to lose 1 Rank Bonus (30 Warrios + Lord), and even then you have a combat Resolution of 5+ Damage.. hehe^^ Never underestimate the warriors with character! Pretty tough unit.
Best way to use this unit is to flank it with 2 units of Black Guards or Khanites if a CoB is in reach, so the weak point of the warriors, the flank, is protected by a stubborn unit. I run a 14 man strong BG on each side.
While BG is perfectly designed to mow down light-medium troops, Warriors with Lord can easily break a knight unit due to their hard combat resolution, well, they can beat every elite unit with easy if they rely on their active combat resolution. You just have to bring them in right position so the warriors can face them under their circumstances.
Short:
1. Take many of them. The more you have, the longer the insane combat resolution works
2. Give them the Warbanner
3. Give them a Charactermodell with Pendant, either the Dreadlord described above or a BSB with Pendant, Bloodarmor, Seadragoncloak and Great Wepon, I prefer the Dreadlord cause he is even tougher to kill
4. Flank them with stubborn Units/ use territory to protect their flank
5. Use Harpies and Dark Riders to redirect, in 2k I take 2x5 naked Riders and 2x5 Harpies.
That´s how I use them, and I love them. Not so killy as BG with ASF and Character, but your strengh is then deployed army wide and not all eggs into one basked. Remember, a Character and big unit of Warriors looks impressivse and dangerous, it will soak magic an firepower from your elites, so make sure you have a lot of warriors (30) that they can still hold their ground when they reach combat.
Best way to use this unit is to flank it with 2 units of Black Guards or Khanites if a CoB is in reach, so the weak point of the warriors, the flank, is protected by a stubborn unit. I run a 14 man strong BG on each side.
While BG is perfectly designed to mow down light-medium troops, Warriors with Lord can easily break a knight unit due to their hard combat resolution, well, they can beat every elite unit with easy if they rely on their active combat resolution. You just have to bring them in right position so the warriors can face them under their circumstances.
Short:
1. Take many of them. The more you have, the longer the insane combat resolution works
2. Give them the Warbanner
3. Give them a Charactermodell with Pendant, either the Dreadlord described above or a BSB with Pendant, Bloodarmor, Seadragoncloak and Great Wepon, I prefer the Dreadlord cause he is even tougher to kill
4. Flank them with stubborn Units/ use territory to protect their flank
5. Use Harpies and Dark Riders to redirect, in 2k I take 2x5 naked Riders and 2x5 Harpies.
That´s how I use them, and I love them. Not so killy as BG with ASF and Character, but your strengh is then deployed army wide and not all eggs into one basked. Remember, a Character and big unit of Warriors looks impressivse and dangerous, it will soak magic an firepower from your elites, so make sure you have a lot of warriors (30) that they can still hold their ground when they reach combat.
Lakissov wrote:Skilgannon, from the point cost I understand that you use them without shields. I'd really recommend to use shields, as it increases armour save from 6+ to 4+ in combat, which is really nice against all S3-S4 things (of which there are quite a few)...
Its only 4+ if you choose to use the hand weapon. If you are using spears, its only 5+
- Layne
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Spear doesn't require two hands?
Layne
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Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
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Global Moderator. Everything but the weather.
Caveat Numptor.
Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
Mount: Dark Steed (Shiny), talisman of kurnous
Gold: 2294
Skills: Ambidexterity, Controlled Frenzy, Basic Ride, Drukh Kaganth
Class: Khainite
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If using spears and shields seems a stretch, think of the movie 300 and how the Spartans did it. In regards to the main thread of using multiple warrior blocks, most of the vital points have been covered already (killy characters, large size (25+), shields, etc.). My only additional recommendation would be on using them. Rather than employing 3 large blocks, 2 large ones (one with warbanner and the other with banner of murder) could be supported by 2 minimum size units of 10 that are used as meatshield screen/redirect/flank chargers. The larger blocks can withstand a charge from a hard unit if the meatshield is used to direct the enemy onto the front of the large block via an overrun so that the combat is fought during the next Druchii turn. During the DE turn, the hammer units charge in from the flanks and with higher initiative, will strike before the enemy chargers. With an assassin in the main block, you might even wipe out the enemy unit entirely before they get a chance to strike back
- Yourmumrang
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- Skilgannon
- Cold One Knight
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@Lakissov
Actually I think both options work out about the same value. The first two units I built were without shields as the cheaper units worked well with the other things I was trying at first. I am now building two more units which will have shields so I have this option and these will be the two units more likely to have banners and characters in this army.
Actually I think both options work out about the same value. The first two units I built were without shields as the cheaper units worked well with the other things I was trying at first. I am now building two more units which will have shields so I have this option and these will be the two units more likely to have banners and characters in this army.
YourMumRang wrote:How about plonking a Hag in there with the Banner of Hag Graef? 6/7 wide and ASF can deter some enemies and Stubborn from the Hag near a Cauldron really helps the unit. Plus give her Manbane + Rune of Khaine and you can really hurt.
It's sub-optimum but unexpected!
It would work nicely except the Hag is frenzied so will charge out of the unit if anything is in range. As this happens after you declare charges if you get your distances wrong the Hag is going to go in alone and get herself killed.
Even if you do declare a charge with your spears then they can only fight in 1 rank which isnt the greatest, you need a lot of spears to really make the ASF useful.
- Skilgannon
- Cold One Knight
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Ok I had my first game against some daemons you can read about it here:
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?p=761783#761783
It is certainly interesting probably the biggest issue is I would have quite liked some more spears 3 units soesn't feel quite enough (I think a fourth would be great maybe at bigger points levels) although alot of that is due to them being rather good agaisnt daemons.
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?p=761783#761783
It is certainly interesting probably the biggest issue is I would have quite liked some more spears 3 units soesn't feel quite enough (I think a fourth would be great maybe at bigger points levels) although alot of that is due to them being rather good agaisnt daemons.
- [llct]kain
- Assassin
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For the initial topic I would like to add some positive for fielding 3 units of spears in 2K (incl. Shields). First of all it can work realy good.
As allready been said they are no real anvil - but 20 warriors could be enough to take the charge of most normal cav. units. Therefor you have three units which need quite a lot power to be broken. If you add some control over the movement phase to this your enemy will have problems to bring the needed power on the spot.
In case your enemy brings enough power in that would break the spears you just flee. Here comes the second condition into play, you must create some web of counter-/flankcharging possibilities with your other blocks or CoC etc.
From a budged (pointsvise) point of view the units should be 20 man, FC .
If you like you can add a warbanner to one and an assasin to another one.
I would put down four conditions for such list:
- no pointsinks (no unit more than 200 points)
- control of the movement phase
- net of countercharge options
- flee if you will not win (even with solid blocks)
I played thus setups on the last tourneys and it is quite ok . You can bring a lot of wounds and you deny the enmy a real target to gain points from.
As allready been said they are no real anvil - but 20 warriors could be enough to take the charge of most normal cav. units. Therefor you have three units which need quite a lot power to be broken. If you add some control over the movement phase to this your enemy will have problems to bring the needed power on the spot.
In case your enemy brings enough power in that would break the spears you just flee. Here comes the second condition into play, you must create some web of counter-/flankcharging possibilities with your other blocks or CoC etc.
From a budged (pointsvise) point of view the units should be 20 man, FC .
If you like you can add a warbanner to one and an assasin to another one.
I would put down four conditions for such list:
- no pointsinks (no unit more than 200 points)
- control of the movement phase
- net of countercharge options
- flee if you will not win (even with solid blocks)
I played thus setups on the last tourneys and it is quite ok . You can bring a lot of wounds and you deny the enmy a real target to gain points from.
- Skilgannon
- Cold One Knight
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- Dannyisevil
- Shade
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The bigger the unit is, the harder too move.
2 units of 15 or one unit of 30.
Wat role you want for the dark elf spearmen unit?
You want a big strong unit that have outnumber+ 3 ranks + banner and can hold a charge.
or
You like too play small unit that more easy too flank and flee but do not have that manny ranks + outnumber.
1 unit of 20 spearmen is an average unit that is not that exspensive but if there is any losses too this unit that it loose ranks.
Big units are +20 models (more 25)
Small are under 15.
It depents on which role you give too the warriors in your army, maybee test is out?
2 units of 15 or one unit of 30.
Wat role you want for the dark elf spearmen unit?
You want a big strong unit that have outnumber+ 3 ranks + banner and can hold a charge.
or
You like too play small unit that more easy too flank and flee but do not have that manny ranks + outnumber.
1 unit of 20 spearmen is an average unit that is not that exspensive but if there is any losses too this unit that it loose ranks.
Big units are +20 models (more 25)
Small are under 15.
It depents on which role you give too the warriors in your army, maybee test is out?
- [llct]kain
- Assassin
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1 unit of 20 spearmen is an average unit that is not that exspensive but if there is any losses too this unit that it loose ranks.
That is normaly ok. In other words with 3 units of 20 you have the option of 3 times full ranks - with 3 times 25 you payed another unit of 15 for some potential benefit. The points are spend better in another unit of 10 RxBs or 5 CoK
Only my Level 4 costs more than 200pts
Yeah - I played that too and it works, but changed after a while to 2 Lv2.
After that I realised that the Lv4 was some sort of beacon for the enemy.
It gave the opponent a clear aim with 2 benefits, first a lot of VPs and a silenced magic phase. Thus it forced the army to "defend" the Lv4.
With the 2 Lv2 you gain two advantages.
First it leaves you opponent quite confused about how to attack or where to attack - there are no real VPs on the table that are worth to send the heavy guys in. Second everything in the army is no expendable. You can try to set up counter charges for his biggest assault - and forcing your opponent to make it even bigger. Then let him charge but sacrifiy your unit - all his hitting power is no on one spot gaining 200 or 400 VP. While you take his rest...
in the sum it is something like playing after Sun Tzu's advise:
"Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens downward. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.[...]
- Skilgannon
- Cold One Knight
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Yeah I haven't had much issue with the L4 I have gone with a sacrifical dagger (which is much better on the L4) and a unit of 15 to sacrifice/keep her safe. The other big benefit is Ld9 which I lose with the two level 2s with an army that will do a fair bit of tactical fleeing having the extra Leadership is quite helpful for rallying and fear/terror checks etc. I don't think I would be comfortable below leadership 9 without lots of units which don't need it which isn't the case here. The difference with 2 level 2s is that you have to try and defend two models rather than 1 which is harder against some armies.