Reaper Bolt Throwers- making a comeback?

Entreri bloodletter · Post by **Entreri bloodletter** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:27 am

With the increasing prevalence of big nasties in all the newer books (and some old ones too) have you seen the need to incorporate bolt throwers once again into your lists? With a superior range and excellent accuracy these things can go a long way towards neutralizing the large monsters staring you down across the table.

Stegadons, hydras, shaggoths (more rare), and now especially the new skaven with their hellpit abominations, doomwheels, and even the screaming bell and plague furnace. All of these are monsters (pun intended) in close combat and many of them are a combination of high toughness/regen/ and/or stubborn.

Not many of our units can reliably break them on the charge, especially when they still have full wounds(light shooting can't reliably damage these types of troops). This is where the bolt throwers come in, hitting on 3's or better and usually wounding on 4's or 3's and with D3 wounds a piece these things can help even the odds in your favor.

I can see myself putting my bolt throwers back in my list simply to help deal with these monsters because the rest of my army tends to have a harder time(but it can still be done). So how about anyone else out there? With the prevalence of big nasties will you change your list to reflect that? Or if not what units will you use to do this job?

Uman · Post by **Uman** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:59 am

I never leave home without 2, never have!

U

Nemesis1020 · Post by **Nemesis1020** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:08 am

I am with Uman... 2 Reaper Bolt Throwers and 1 War Hydra are my rare choices for almost every army.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:19 am

If you're scared of the hellpit abomination, there's little point taking bolt throwers. With regen and the ability to hop back up, plus tunnellers for support, you won't be getting much value from the RBT anytime soon.

I use RBT's for killing light stuff and massed light shooting for large targets. All those shots with ap and 6's to wound have always been better for me than a single hit or miss (usually miss) shot with an RBT. Besides, RBT's are killed too easily by magic missiles.

They will be very useful for killing off weapons teams and jezzails in the new skaven book though.

Bounce · Post by **Bounce** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:38 am

Bolt Throwers are great but I usually use them for wiping out Fast Cav and other support units.

Usually the big monsters are too tough, yes you might inflict a reasonable amount of damage or you will just roll double 1's to hit and feel generally sad.

With 12 shots you wil at least hit something!

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:06 am

There are some targets, which can be killed by a dragonlord only after preliminary weakening by the RBT. When playing against them, I use the RBT for such weakeninng.

For shooting light stuff, I use two units on 9 shades - they do the job very well, and they protect the RBTs from warmachine hunters.

Tzelok · Post by **Tzelok** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:17 am

If playing over the 2k threshold, I will use a Hydra and two RBT's. I find that personally I like to use the single shot for large monsters like dragons. I find I am usually pretty lucky with the rolls though, so I am biased.

Crawd · Post by **Crawd** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:39 am

I never leave without 2 RBTs, they always have a use and always did their job. I just don't understand why people stick them together one of the other... I always spread them, so I have more chance of getting a nice cavalry flank!

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:52 am

I found the postings below fascinating and thought it would be relevant here:

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=23375

In a nutshell, the advantages to me of Rpt Blts is their small size and long range. The disadvantages include their high costs, poor combat versatility (unlike a unit of RxBs, they can not fight or really defend themselves if necessary) and the fact that point for point they do less damage - even to large monsters - than RxBs.

You're usually better off with an assassin with manbane and rending stars in a unit of shades (2s to hit and 2s to wound on all creatures up to toughness 6).

Weenth · Post by **Weenth** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:27 pm

deathknight27 wrote:I found the postings below fascinating and thought it would be relevant here:

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=23375

In a nutshell, the advantages to me of Rpt Blts is their small size and long range. The disadvantages include their high costs, poor combat versatility (unlike a unit of RxBs, they can not fight or really defend themselves if necessary) and the fact that point for point they do less damage - even to large monsters - than RxBs.

It's not actually true that they do less damage than RXB if you take into account the range. RXB do more damage in 1-12" range, but with many units that situation simply won't happen - unless in S&S charge reaction scenario.

[more than 12"]-[up to 24"] is long range for RxBs and short range of RBT. That makes quite a difference. To compare just a few values from the topic you've given (enemy 13-24" away, one RBT vs 10 shield-less RXB - both units worth 100 pts; the number given is average wounds caused):

HE spears:
RBT mulitshot: 2.67
10 RXB: 2.77

Empire Swordsmen (or rather some unit with T3 & 4+ AS - I assume creator of that summary forgot that Swordsmen get 4+ save in H-t-H only

):
RBT multishot: 2.22
10 RXB: 2.22

Orc Boyz:
RBT multishot: 2.00
10 RXB: 1.85

HE Knights:
RBT multishot: 1.33
10 RXB: 1.11

Empire Knights:
RBT multishot: 0.89
10 RXB: 0.56

Knights of Chaos:
RBT multishot: 0.67
10 RXB: 0.37

Giant:
RBT multishot: 1.67
10 RXB: 1.67

Treekin:
RBT multishot: 0.74
10 RXB: 0.49

In the range over 24" to 48" the advantage of RBT is clear, I think.

So, I'd say that:
- RXB is better up to 12"
- RBT is better over 24"
- in 12"-24" range RBT is better against armoured/heavily armoured targets, especially T4 or T5
- in 12"-24" range RXB are better against unarmoured/lightly armoured T3 targets, as well as T6 targets (as both S3 and S4 wound on 6+ in that case)
- only RBT has any chance to wound T7+ target (should such thing appear on the battlefield

)

So IMO they come out even in this comparison, both choices equally worth their points, but having different uses:

- RBT are most effective against distant targets and are both less usefull up close and unable to defend themselves if charged.

- RXB are most effective in a range that endangers them with enemy charge, but stand some chance in HtH (note though, that with shields 9 RXB already cost same as RBT, making the latter more effective shooter in comparison).

Weenth · Post by **Weenth** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:28 pm

deathknight27 wrote:Hi Weenth,

I think some of your calculations are a bit off here?

Giant:

[edit]The calculations are correct, Giant is T5, not T6.

deathknight27 wrote:Default orc boyz don't come with shields if I recall, in which case the odds are actually in favour of the RxBs.

The RBT damage summary didn't give info on that (it doesn't affect result in RBT's case), so I assumed they'd have shields, as that's the more probable unit to face (shield is easily worth that 1 pt on OB).

Anyway, you're right that RXB are more effective if they're without them. Which still fits my conclusion - at this range RXB are better against unarmoured/lightly armoured targets.

Colonel · Post by **Colonel** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:38 pm

I have removed bolt throwers from my lists as they do little vs VC and deamons. I replaced them with chariots as they are fear causers and can often hold up a fear causing unit for a while even if losing.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:54 pm

[edit] The calculations are correct, Giant is T5, not T6.

You replied too quickly! I just looked at GW's website after posting and - realising my error - quickly deleted my post on that basis, but you still got to see it and reply before I did! LOL!

I think the bottom line for me is that against T6 and T3 models the RxBs are by and large better (as you correctly summarise). I will likely keep on taking between 0 and 2 depending on the circumstances of each game, with a trend towards 0 unless I feel sure my opponent is bringing lots of T5 flying monster type things.

Weenth · Post by **Weenth** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:04 pm

deathknight27 wrote:You replied too quickly! I just looked at GW's website after posting and quickly deleted my post on that basis, but you still got to see it and reply before I did! LOL!

Thanks to Dark Prince for blessing me with Unnatural Swiftness.

deathknight27 wrote:I think the bottom line for me is that against T6 and T3 models the RxBs are by and large better (as you correctly summarise).

...unless those T3 models are 3+ AS or better and if that T6 Dragon doesn't just fly around RxB shooting area

(even if he's in range and they can just turn to face him their effectiveness will fall down due to -1 for moving, wheras RBT can turn on spot without penalty).

So in 13-24" range it depends on the situation & target. RXB are by and large better only below 12" (ah, I still remember when Vampire Lord on a slightly wounded Zombie Dragon decided to sit at the side of my RxB and breath at them, instead of charging. He somehow managed to only kill 2 out of 12. Next turn: turn, shoot and suddenly there's wounded VL without a mount.

)

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:08 pm

(ah, I still remember when Vampire Lord on a slightly wounded Zombie Dragon decided to sit at the side of my RxB and breath at them, instead of charging. He somehow managed to only kill 2 out of 12. Next turn: turn, shoot and suddenly there's wounded VL without a mount. )

Hehe, very nice

In my most recent game my RxBs charged the HE hero with starlance on a griffon from the side (it was already in combat, so I couldn't just pepper it to death). A few suprising rolls later and there was no more HE hero

Post by **Dalamar** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:08 pm

I played with 2 RBTs in preparation for UKGT for a while.
Managed to ditch them again in favour of second hydra.
Versatility over single S6 shots anyday.

If Bolt Thrower single shot was S7 (and it should be at 100points per) I would be taking them.

Entreri bloodletter · Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:47 pm

Would you consider getting a DoW cannon for that S7? At only 85 points I have often considered getting one. True it can misfire but cannons have always seemed to make up their points whenever I play against them. Another disadvantage is you can only get 1 per rare instead of two but it could be an option worth considering.

Post by **Dalamar** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:52 pm

I would consider them then.
Except DoW are not allowed at most tournaments anymore.
Also DoW cannon is S10 d3 wounds.
Galloper Gun is S7 (and M8 <.<)

Slortor · Post by **Slortor** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:10 am

purely out of interest are DoW allowed at the GT?

Post by **Dalamar** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:30 am

They're not in any way shape or form, either as extra units in your army or independent army.

Marauder mitch2 · Post by **Marauder mitch2** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:37 pm

I find 2 RBTs and a hydra is in most my builds until Benjis comp restriction regarding the RoH comes in, then i will keep the RBTs.

RBTs and RXBs work best together not one or the other, All my DE shooting early is killing my opponents movement which is where the RBTs are great at killing the Fast cav and the divertors. Against VCs and daemons is great but i always more or less deploy on the board edge against them.

Minsc · Post by **Minsc** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:14 am

I usually only field 1 Hydra as Rare choice as I usually don't have the points for RBT's (2250-2500 pts games.).
If I do though, I usually take 1-2 of them.

I never use 2 Hydras in the same list, that's over the top in my book. (But then, I never play at GT's either. Fun games > winning games.)

Katon · Post by **Katon** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:06 pm

Since the new book came out I fielded Hydra every time for his points he was amazing and my RBT sat on the shelf, I forgot how may times they had saved me in 6th ed.

Since then though all I get is complaints about me fielding a Hydra, mostly because my opponents don’t field any monsters and never commit anything to killing it.

It did get quite easy though for it’s point is will quite happily throw my Hydra solo into a unit for a turn until I can support it, and if it did go wrong which some times it did it’s not a major loss due to the physiological affect it has on a player. So now Hydra is back on the shelf and at the drop of a DS in come 2 RBT.

Though the Hydra is good I liked the old 6th ed and though we have lots of fun toys to play with now I like the old style of playing and the concentration and precision required to win with a softer army.

2 RBT’s all the way and lots of infantry is my style for the moment. Just set them up with a good cross fire arc and watch your opponent question his movement every turn.

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:27 pm

I believe 2x RBTs are virtually mandatory (in a standard 2000-2250 list):

In most lists, DE rely on good deployment and movement to secure victory (I'm sure the death-star advocates floating around will say otherwise, but I'm old-school 6thEd

.

Rather than a "kill whatever" sort of mentality to using them, I tend to team them up with DRs or Harpies, where the RBTs are ideal at removing competitive fast units (like fast cav and flyers), not to mention their psychological impact when holding a flank. With their range and precision, I find they tend to help secure dominance in the movement phase rather than "earn their points back" in kills. Same way a COB hardly ever earns it's cost back on it's own, but rather indirectly through the units its supports.

Not sure if they're 100% the best unit for taking out big nasty monsters, depends on which monsters and what the rest of the army looks like, but they definitely do have that flexibility.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:31 pm

Same way a COB hardly ever earns it's cost back on it's own

Although part of the charm of the CoB is it's so crazy hard to kill (3 characters, all with 4+ ward saves and super high I - yay) whereas Rp Blts tend to get slaughtered immediately if charged

The reason that matters is that the CoB doesn't just help other units to add points, but it stays alive too, depriving your enemy of points as well!