Why are Executioners bad?
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- Trainee Warrior
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Why are Executioners bad?
It seems to me that people are giving up on executioners, why are they so bad, problems with them I see are low armour, striking last, better special options. Is it just these reasons that make them not preffered or am I missing something. Dont forget they have killing blow and a hand weapon for prolonged fighting.
Finaly do you think a 50pt magic banner like the black guard would of made them more worth wile.
Do you think Executioners can perform any task better then our other special options(Just a side thought)
Finaly do you think a 50pt magic banner like the black guard would of made them more worth wile.
Do you think Executioners can perform any task better then our other special options(Just a side thought)
Last edited by Aron draith on Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Trainee Warrior
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- Highborn
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I actually love my Exe`s. Yes, there is stiff competition in the Special slot, and yes striking last is a pain sometimes, but they have their uses.
I regularly play against Warriors of Chaos. As everyone knows, WoC have high WS, S, T and AS. To have a decent chance of wounding a Chaos Warrior, ya really need Strength 4 or greater. I always take my unit of 14 BG deployed 7x2, 2 units of 5xCOK`s, and a unit of 14 Exe`s deployed 7x2 as my Special choices. All these units hit at either Strength 4 or Strength 6 depending on the circumstances. Backed up by the CoB, My Exe`s have 2 Attacks each (3 for the Draich Master). 15 Strength 6 Killing Blow Attacks with re-rolls to hit on the Charge is not to be sniffed at, and usually takes out most, if not all of a front rank. If I think the Exe`s are likely to fight beyond the turn they Charge in, I let them use their hand weapons. Again, backed up by the CoB, that`s still 15 Strength 4 Killing Blow Attacks with re-rolls on the charge. In combination with a BG or COK unit, the Exe`s are devastating.
Against WoC, most of our AS`s are negated by their Strength and weapons, so I don`t really worry about it. Apart from COK`s, COC`s, Hydra`s and Dragons, all Dark Elves AS suck. It`s just a fact.
Horses for courses. Vs. well armoured, Strong, Tough enemies, I take Exe`s. Against other armies, there are other options.
That`s why I love Dark Elves. There`s an option for most eventualities.
So I voted for a mix of reasons. Better options (vs. some armies), and strikes last.
I regularly play against Warriors of Chaos. As everyone knows, WoC have high WS, S, T and AS. To have a decent chance of wounding a Chaos Warrior, ya really need Strength 4 or greater. I always take my unit of 14 BG deployed 7x2, 2 units of 5xCOK`s, and a unit of 14 Exe`s deployed 7x2 as my Special choices. All these units hit at either Strength 4 or Strength 6 depending on the circumstances. Backed up by the CoB, My Exe`s have 2 Attacks each (3 for the Draich Master). 15 Strength 6 Killing Blow Attacks with re-rolls to hit on the Charge is not to be sniffed at, and usually takes out most, if not all of a front rank. If I think the Exe`s are likely to fight beyond the turn they Charge in, I let them use their hand weapons. Again, backed up by the CoB, that`s still 15 Strength 4 Killing Blow Attacks with re-rolls on the charge. In combination with a BG or COK unit, the Exe`s are devastating.
Against WoC, most of our AS`s are negated by their Strength and weapons, so I don`t really worry about it. Apart from COK`s, COC`s, Hydra`s and Dragons, all Dark Elves AS suck. It`s just a fact.
Horses for courses. Vs. well armoured, Strong, Tough enemies, I take Exe`s. Against other armies, there are other options.
That`s why I love Dark Elves. There`s an option for most eventualities.
So I voted for a mix of reasons. Better options (vs. some armies), and strikes last.
Be happy, and ye shall be wise
I didn't vote, beacuse Exes are imho as hard as steel! Firstly I'm a big whorshipper of Khaine and come on guys: low costs, S4, WS5 and thw!!!!!! with a DH and the banner of hag graf they get really mean and in combination with te CoB they are unfair. And they have really freat fluff...
Not every unit can have skills like chaoswarriors
Not every unit can have skills like chaoswarriors
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Cannot vote: I hesitate between
- because people cannot figure out how good they are with a COB
- because of the fluff: I don't like Khainite troops.
- because people cannot figure out how good they are with a COB
- because of the fluff: I don't like Khainite troops.
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- Beastmaster
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I haven't used them from the new book yet, so I don't have any practical background to speak from, but I think one mainreason for my part atleast, is their "Khainite" rule, denying masters and lords to join them, dishing out a few kills before they can strike them selves.
Yes, we may take a Hag ASF bsb, but I think I can use my heroslots better than a t3-no save model, forexample a Pendantwearing bsb on steed
Other factors are the ones mentioned above, and I think it's sad that they aren't used much, because I think they are the coolest models GW has
Yes, we may take a Hag ASF bsb, but I think I can use my heroslots better than a t3-no save model, forexample a Pendantwearing bsb on steed
Other factors are the ones mentioned above, and I think it's sad that they aren't used much, because I think they are the coolest models GW has
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- Highborn
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Yes it is a pain that some characters cannot join Exe`s. But remember, a Death hag can join them...that`s a s*** load of attacks, PLUS, if you want to go first, put an Assassin in with them. The Assassin will strike first even if the Exe`s are charged. Remember Manbane and RoK.dishing out a few kills before they can strike them selves.
Exe`s are very useful in the correct army build vs. a prefered opponent.
Specialists in other words.
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- Dyvim tvar
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- Beastmaster
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Dyvim Tvar wrote:Calisson wrote:Cannot vote: I hesitate between
- because people cannot figure out how good they are with a COB
This one.
I use Executioners, and believe me -- my opponents understand how good they are when used in conjunction with the Cauldron.
Yeah, I think so to, that with the Cauldrion and perhaps a ASF hagbsb, they might work very well, but as said a couple a posts ago, they're specialists, not making them good enough compared to BGs and shades in a tournament setting.
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- Highborn
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Hear hear.my opponents understand how good they are when used in conjunction with the Cauldron
Exe`s are our only true infantry can openers. BG have 4 Strength with Halberds, but Exe`s with S6 and KB is very cool. Plus, as I said previously, they have S4 just with their hand weapons also with KB, so strikes last needn`t be an issue if you so desire.
Really, I don`t see why people think Exe`s aren`t much chop. The only real thing I can think of is the competition in the Special slot. That doesn`t mean the Exe`s are BAD, it just means alot of people will make another choice for their own reasons (tactical, fluff etc.). Most of our troops (and Elves in general) get pretty average Armour Saves, so that shouldn`t be an issue. BG have no better AS. I think the appeal of the BG is their Ld9, 2 Attacks, Stubborn, superior WS and Initiative etc etc...well actually BG are very awesome.
All that aside. For 10 points you get a S4 (S6 with Draich), AS5+, Killing Blow psycho who can also be Stubborn within 12" of the CoB. That`s not to mention the other benefits of the CoB, OR the little add on`s and upgrades you can bolster them with like Death Hag BSB`s and Assassin`s.
That is good value.
Be happy, and ye shall be wise
- Dalamar
- Dragon Lord
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Pros:
S6
Killing Blow
Khainite (will explain why a pro)
Cons:
M5
only 5+ AS
Strike Last
Khainite (will explain why a con)
Compared to our other can opener: Cold one Knights
Pros:
M7
S6
2+ AS
Fear
Ld9
Cons:
Stupidity
Here's where Executioners shine when compared to Cold One Knights:
Charging multiwound, US1/2 units with high AS
Here's why it's a theory only:
Those units are generally faster than Executioners, so they get a charge against them, ending in a mass of dead executioners. Those unit often cause fear, meaning Executioners start at a disadvantage without immunity and average Ld of 8.
And here's why Khainite is both pro and a con:
Stubborn within 12" of CoB - pro
Can't be joined by non Khainite characters - con
Cauldron of Blood and executioners:
It's all nice and killy... but If you bless Cold one Knights with the additional attack, well, they're only missing the Killing Blow (which is not a BIG advantage against standard 1W units bear in mind) while retaining all their advantages, mainly M7
Remember: Elves are fragile, hit them and they will die. Get charged and you will die. Charge and you will cause your opponents to cry cheese.
S6
Killing Blow
Khainite (will explain why a pro)
Cons:
M5
only 5+ AS
Strike Last
Khainite (will explain why a con)
Compared to our other can opener: Cold one Knights
Pros:
M7
S6
2+ AS
Fear
Ld9
Cons:
Stupidity
Here's where Executioners shine when compared to Cold One Knights:
Charging multiwound, US1/2 units with high AS
Here's why it's a theory only:
Those units are generally faster than Executioners, so they get a charge against them, ending in a mass of dead executioners. Those unit often cause fear, meaning Executioners start at a disadvantage without immunity and average Ld of 8.
And here's why Khainite is both pro and a con:
Stubborn within 12" of CoB - pro
Can't be joined by non Khainite characters - con
Cauldron of Blood and executioners:
It's all nice and killy... but If you bless Cold one Knights with the additional attack, well, they're only missing the Killing Blow (which is not a BIG advantage against standard 1W units bear in mind) while retaining all their advantages, mainly M7
Remember: Elves are fragile, hit them and they will die. Get charged and you will die. Charge and you will cause your opponents to cry cheese.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
See I have a question. I Also hesitate to vote because i belive Exes are a fantastic unit especially combined with a hag bsb. My problem is the face that the Hag is frenzyed forcing the unit to charge. A cany opponent will pick up on this and send sacrificial units to fore charges. My question is can i put the hag in the backrank? if i can does the unit still get the benifit of the hags banner? In this example say i have the BoHG does this work?
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"I’m not going to fight them, you fool. I’m going to kill them.”
-Malus Darkblade
"We shall strike down our foes with sharp steel and cold hearts. The weak die so that the strong prevail and none shall be spared. Then and only then will our enemies know the true meaning of fear."
- Malekith, The Witch King of Naggaroth
- Dalamar
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You can't put a character in any rank other than the front rank unless:
you just refused challenge and your opponent picked that character to move away.
Your unit is charged from the rear, but holds. Then in your following movement phase you can move your character anywhere in base to base contact with the enemy.
In all cases, if your character is not in front rank *or* in contact with the enemy if in any other rank than front, they *can't* use any of their stats or equipment.
you just refused challenge and your opponent picked that character to move away.
Your unit is charged from the rear, but holds. Then in your following movement phase you can move your character anywhere in base to base contact with the enemy.
In all cases, if your character is not in front rank *or* in contact with the enemy if in any other rank than front, they *can't* use any of their stats or equipment.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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sassmaw wrote:My problem is the face that the Hag is frenzyed forcing the unit to charge.
It only forces the Hag to charge. It's still an option for the unit. Just so you know the difference. Of course, both the options are likely to be bad. Or, you could factor it into your battle plan from deployment onwards. Screen the unit, if you like, or look on it as your enemy giving you the chance to move your squishy melee infantry another few inches forward in his turn.
Layne
Global Moderator. Everything but the weather.
Caveat Numptor.
Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
Mount: Dark Steed (Shiny), talisman of kurnous
Gold: 2294
Skills: Ambidexterity, Controlled Frenzy, Basic Ride, Drukh Kaganth
Class: Khainite
Global Moderator. Everything but the weather.
Caveat Numptor.
Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
Mount: Dark Steed (Shiny), talisman of kurnous
Gold: 2294
Skills: Ambidexterity, Controlled Frenzy, Basic Ride, Drukh Kaganth
Class: Khainite
Hey hey!Demetrius the Betrayer wrote:Calisson wrote:Cannot vote: I hesitate between
- because people cannot figure out how good they are with a COB
My vote.
It looks that there ARE people who know how to play Execs!
And this thread proves that there are also many people who don't (all who answered the poll by ticking one of the box).
It is a good moment to reiterate my call (click in the hyperlink below):
HELP me to improve the D.R.A.I.C.H. !
There is an Exec tactica to write, preferably by someone knowlegeable about them, in order to help those who were able to answer this poll's limited choices.
Anyone would dare take up the challenge?
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I think exes are great. I use a big unit of 18 with an assassin who can kill a few models before the enemy has a chance to strike at the exes. Giving banner of murder to them simply makes the assassin with rune of khaine and touch of death a can opener. The banner also asures that the exes will carve a bloody path through even the most heavily armoured foes.
I think that the biggest con with exes is that non khainite characters can't join them. If a master with SoHG could join them they would be overkill. Personally I think that they have much more potential than BG, not least because most players underestimate exes.
I think that the biggest con with exes is that non khainite characters can't join them. If a master with SoHG could join them they would be overkill. Personally I think that they have much more potential than BG, not least because most players underestimate exes.
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- Venkh
- Malekith's Best Friend
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Yeah they are awesome with the cauldron, a bsb or both. A lethal apocalype of whirling death.
While I agree, the problem I always have this argument is the 'with'. Investing in a bsb for an otherwise expensive, fragile unit is a luxury afforded to us because the rest of our list is so damned hard. Put this unit in a bog standard empire army and it'll be toast by turn 3. I suppose thats the flaw with 'how good is this unit' threads.
The cauldron is ace, whether or not you use executioners although the buffs available work really well with them.
While I agree, the problem I always have this argument is the 'with'. Investing in a bsb for an otherwise expensive, fragile unit is a luxury afforded to us because the rest of our list is so damned hard. Put this unit in a bog standard empire army and it'll be toast by turn 3. I suppose thats the flaw with 'how good is this unit' threads.
The cauldron is ace, whether or not you use executioners although the buffs available work really well with them.
I actually prefer them to black guard in terms of fighting stats (S4 against T4 Chaos Warriors with 2+ armour saves just doesn't cut it), but their big let down is:
They can not be made immune to psychology AND the only way to give them fear is to take a grossly overpriced 95 point unit champ.
That's killer. No point being stubborn from the cauldron if they run away (leadership 8 blows). Similarly, if you lose combat against a fear or terror causing enemy, they're gone. It's just lame. (Unfortunately, that's not an option on your poll, so I can't vote.)
So against armies with lots of fear and terror causing units and/or monsters, I tend to end up edging towards black guard. Sadly, the number of fear and terror causing enemies is going up with every new army book.
Other problems include:
- Unit champ can't carry a magic item (particularly sad as ring of hotek is awesome).
- Unit banner is limited to 25 points (meaning you have to take a BSB with no armour save if you want the standard of HG).
They can not be made immune to psychology AND the only way to give them fear is to take a grossly overpriced 95 point unit champ.
That's killer. No point being stubborn from the cauldron if they run away (leadership 8 blows). Similarly, if you lose combat against a fear or terror causing enemy, they're gone. It's just lame. (Unfortunately, that's not an option on your poll, so I can't vote.)
So against armies with lots of fear and terror causing units and/or monsters, I tend to end up edging towards black guard. Sadly, the number of fear and terror causing enemies is going up with every new army book.
Other problems include:
- Unit champ can't carry a magic item (particularly sad as ring of hotek is awesome).
- Unit banner is limited to 25 points (meaning you have to take a BSB with no armour save if you want the standard of HG).
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I agree with Callison. Executionners aren't bad, in fact, they are really good when they are well played, just like Witch Elves. If you give these 2 units a Cauldron, they are even stronger than they are without.
Of course Black guards are good but I think they are the "lazy playstyle" of the Druchii... I never played a list with Black Guards yet and I don't feel the need of these... I manage to win without them without trouble.
So there goes my vote: Executionners are good.
Of course Black guards are good but I think they are the "lazy playstyle" of the Druchii... I never played a list with Black Guards yet and I don't feel the need of these... I manage to win without them without trouble.
So there goes my vote: Executionners are good.
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Actually Exes can cause fear without Tullaris. Dread banner is the easiest way, but death magic also gives you this option. Anyway, if you loose a combat with with elves who have greatweapons you are doing something wrong. Exequtioners are meant to slice through the foes in one round, and when used right they will.