Who's Idea Was It To Lower Witchelf WS?
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Who's Idea Was It To Lower Witchelf WS?
I hadn't been able to get my hands on the most recent DE book till last week, and my heart sank when I saw that Witchelves had their WS lowered from 5 to 4. Anyone know why this was done? It seems random considering our other elite units all have WS 5, and since my army was built around WE and the old CoB I'm gonna have to rework it more than I initially thought. Please tell me I just picked up an armybook full of typos.
Lock up your children, shut all windows tight.
The Witch Elves are hunting for victims tonight.
When old hags do knock at your door, you must hide,
Your death is the gift sought by Khaine's pretty brides.
The Witch Elves are hunting for victims tonight.
When old hags do knock at your door, you must hide,
Your death is the gift sought by Khaine's pretty brides.
It's WS 4. Luckily you do get Hatred against everything now. Also the CoB is even better now so I think your army won't need that much of a rework.
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Zardock (Group 27)
Class: Trainee of Khaine
WS:4 / S:5 / T:3 / D:4 / I:2
Equipment: Short sword and Dagger, 50g in a pouch.
Skills: Two Weapon Fighting, Uncontrollable Frenzy
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Zardock (Group 27)
Class: Trainee of Khaine
WS:4 / S:5 / T:3 / D:4 / I:2
Equipment: Short sword and Dagger, 50g in a pouch.
Skills: Two Weapon Fighting, Uncontrollable Frenzy
The Keeper of the D.net Battle Records.
Perhaps it's a preference thing, but the new effects on just one unit don't trump the army-wide effect plus boost to WE it used to have, nor am I too keen on having to keep a character out of the fight just to be able to take it.
Lock up your children, shut all windows tight.
The Witch Elves are hunting for victims tonight.
When old hags do knock at your door, you must hide,
Your death is the gift sought by Khaine's pretty brides.
The Witch Elves are hunting for victims tonight.
When old hags do knock at your door, you must hide,
Your death is the gift sought by Khaine's pretty brides.
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Azure
- Rumour Lord of Doom
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Try out the CoB. I thought it was not worth the loss of the hero slot at first, now I dont leave home without it.
As for Witch Elves drop in WS, its all about points and the synergy of poison and hatred.
10 points per model is hugely significant because they are dirt cheap and the weapon skill drop actually helps their wound potential against anything over T3.
-Rex
EDIT: My post was misleading, what I am trying to say is that the Weaponskill drop is ok when you combine it with the decreased costs AND hatred.
As for Witch Elves drop in WS, its all about points and the synergy of poison and hatred.
10 points per model is hugely significant because they are dirt cheap and the weapon skill drop actually helps their wound potential against anything over T3.
-Rex
EDIT: My post was misleading, what I am trying to say is that the Weaponskill drop is ok when you combine it with the decreased costs AND hatred.
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I thought that might have been the reasoning, it just seemed strange at first.
Anyway, I'll have to get my roommate playing more than 500pts warbands before I get to use the new cauldron.
Anyway, I'll have to get my roommate playing more than 500pts warbands before I get to use the new cauldron.
Lock up your children, shut all windows tight.
The Witch Elves are hunting for victims tonight.
When old hags do knock at your door, you must hide,
Your death is the gift sought by Khaine's pretty brides.
The Witch Elves are hunting for victims tonight.
When old hags do knock at your door, you must hide,
Your death is the gift sought by Khaine's pretty brides.
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Minsc
- Malekith's Personal Guard
- Posts: 828
- Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 8:34 pm
- Location: Glade of Kings or Ghrond.
Old Witchelves: WS5.
New Witchelves: cheaper, WS4, reroll to hit.
The new ones are just so much better.
It's rather fluffy as well with WS4.
Witch Elves aren't your highly trained elite elven troop (Executioners, Black Guard, Knights).
They are crazed mad wenches who enjoy stabbing and slicing bound helpless slaves. It's messy and it's bloody (and kinda kinky) - but it most certainly doesn't train you for war and turns you into a good fighter.
And yes, a Cauldron really helps the witch elves - appart from the obvious bonuses such as +1 A / 5+ Ward / Killing Blow, it makes them Stubborn if they're close enough.
Yes...the new Witch Elves most certainly are better than the old ones, even with lower Weaponskill.
Mod edit - Kindly do not post point costs for individual models here. I believe it is against copyright laws to do that.
- Anderson
New Witchelves: cheaper, WS4, reroll to hit.
The new ones are just so much better.
It's rather fluffy as well with WS4.
Witch Elves aren't your highly trained elite elven troop (Executioners, Black Guard, Knights).
They are crazed mad wenches who enjoy stabbing and slicing bound helpless slaves. It's messy and it's bloody (and kinda kinky) - but it most certainly doesn't train you for war and turns you into a good fighter.
And yes, a Cauldron really helps the witch elves - appart from the obvious bonuses such as +1 A / 5+ Ward / Killing Blow, it makes them Stubborn if they're close enough.
Yes...the new Witch Elves most certainly are better than the old ones, even with lower Weaponskill.
Mod edit - Kindly do not post point costs for individual models here. I believe it is against copyright laws to do that.
- Anderson
Weapon skill plays such a small role in warhammer these days (particularly, as others have pointed out, for dark elves with our eternal hatred).
The more important aspects of witch elves are:
- poison
- synergy with cauldron of blood
- cheapness
- gift of khaine bonuses (a witch elf champion with rune of khaine gets a staggering 5-7 attacks each turn!!!)
In terms of WS impact:
Against a WS4 foe, a frontage of 7 witch elves with champ will have:
22 attacks
11 hits for initial rolls for hitting
5.5 hits from rerolling for hatred
16.5 hits total
With WS5 they would get:
22 attacks
14.666 hits for initial rolls for hitting
4.888 further hits from rerolling for hatred
19.5 hits total
It's not a huge difference
The more important aspects of witch elves are:
- poison
- synergy with cauldron of blood
- cheapness
- gift of khaine bonuses (a witch elf champion with rune of khaine gets a staggering 5-7 attacks each turn!!!)
In terms of WS impact:
Against a WS4 foe, a frontage of 7 witch elves with champ will have:
22 attacks
11 hits for initial rolls for hitting
5.5 hits from rerolling for hatred
16.5 hits total
With WS5 they would get:
22 attacks
14.666 hits for initial rolls for hitting
4.888 further hits from rerolling for hatred
19.5 hits total
It's not a huge difference
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22 attacks
11 hits for initial rolls for hitting => 3.66 poison
5.5 hits from rerolling for hatred => 1.83 more poison
16.5 hits total => including 5.50 poison
With WS5 they would get:
22 attacks
14.666 hits for initial rolls for hitting => 3.66 poison
4.888 further hits from rerolling for hatred => 1.22 more poison
19.5 hits total => including 4.88 poison
You would gain 3 more hits, you would loose 1.84 poison.
The WS4 WE are very slightly better against T3 opponents and become better and better against higher T opponents.
11 hits for initial rolls for hitting => 3.66 poison
5.5 hits from rerolling for hatred => 1.83 more poison
16.5 hits total => including 5.50 poison
With WS5 they would get:
22 attacks
14.666 hits for initial rolls for hitting => 3.66 poison
4.888 further hits from rerolling for hatred => 1.22 more poison
19.5 hits total => including 4.88 poison
You would gain 3 more hits, you would loose 1.84 poison.
The WS4 WE are very slightly better against T3 opponents and become better and better against higher T opponents.
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Calisson wrote:22 attacks
11 hits for initial rolls for hitting => 3.66 poison
5.5 hits from rerolling for hatred => 1.83 more poison
16.5 hits total => including 5.50 poison
With WS5 they would get:
22 attacks
14.666 hits for initial rolls for hitting => 3.66 poison
4.888 further hits from rerolling for hatred => 1.22 more poison
19.5 hits total => including 4.88 poison
You would gain 3 more hits, you would loose 1.84 poison.
The WS4 WE are very slightly better against T3 opponents and become better and better against higher T opponents.
If you add too wounds
5,5 4,88
16,5 19,50
T F3 F3
2 12,83 14,63 14% better
3 11,00 12,19 11% better
4 9,17 9,75 6% better
5 7,33 7,32 Even
6 7,33 7,32 Even
7 5,50 4,88 WS3 11% better
Basicelly, WS4 are a little better. But for 1 point more (WS4 is 10% more in points).
It look like the conceptor had analyzed that to get 10 pts.
i dislike the idea of witches beeing 'as good trained as a boltthrowercrew', too.
they have frenzy, and a 2nd handweapon & poison, rest is as low as possible for darkelves (i think they might have a bit higher initiative).
effetivity per points is nice for sure, but something that sets them really apart from the rest would have been nice.
higher movement for example. probabaly there is almost no other unit in the game which has almost nothing to carry into battle. *g*
or use their stunning beauty in some way - it is mentioned everywhere but no one cares.
maybe gav thought they should be more fragile - a real issue with WS4 is that they get slain faster. there is a lot of units with WS5 out there these days...
imho no save and frenzy is fragile enough, but i am no bookdesigner
they have frenzy, and a 2nd handweapon & poison, rest is as low as possible for darkelves (i think they might have a bit higher initiative).
effetivity per points is nice for sure, but something that sets them really apart from the rest would have been nice.
higher movement for example. probabaly there is almost no other unit in the game which has almost nothing to carry into battle. *g*
or use their stunning beauty in some way - it is mentioned everywhere but no one cares.
maybe gav thought they should be more fragile - a real issue with WS4 is that they get slain faster. there is a lot of units with WS5 out there these days...
imho no save and frenzy is fragile enough, but i am no bookdesigner
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Minsc
- Malekith's Personal Guard
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or use their stunning beauty in some way - it is mentioned everywhere but no one cares.
Doesn't matter how beautiful - If they come running towards you in a frenzied manner, screaming, bloody and with daggers blazing the last thought in your brain will be "How to best charm theese lov...ladies".
Morathi has the "Enchanting Beauty" rule, but she's also:
a) Apparently the most beautiful elf in the world.
b) (and more importantly) The most powerful Sorceress/Enchantress in the dark elven society. I don't think the "Enchanting Beauty" effect comes from her looks alone - there's bound to be some dark magic at work there as well.
And as we know - witchelves have no magical properties.
And yes, they are I6 so they are somewhat special.
