How do you run your Black Guard?

[Faheman89]

I have always run my black guard in three ranks of 6. I've taken notice that many people run their black guard in units of 14... 2 ranks of 7, I presume. How do you run your black guard and why?

[Babnik]

2 ranks of 7 is less costly than 3 x 6 and have 4 more attacks WS5 and S4.

It seems, untill new V8 rules is appreciated, it is the best option for now...

Untill V7 books was released (from 2004 till 2008) , I was used to play 6 ranks of 4 BG with dread banner!!!

[Creedence]

I either run 7 x2 or if I want them to be able to hold up a unit I expect to take a number of casualties/Act as a bodyguard I will take 20 add a character and field them 7x3.

They are very unlikely to run so SCR is not as important as being able to use the high initiative to kill off the opponent before being attacked back.

[Ihdarklord]

I run them like this:

14 Black Guard (2x7)
Tower Master -> RoH or Crimson Death
Standard Bearer -> Banner of Hag Graef

In 2000+ games, I usually take the RoH for safety matters and because magic is VERY popular here (I dislike Gateways).
Under 2000 pts, the S6 is nice because it makes my BG survive knight-charges.

That's my 2 cent.

[Minsc]

14x Black Guard (or more if I got the points - always 7 wide though).
Ring of Hotek/Crimson Death on Tower Master.
Banner of Murder on the Standard Bearer.

If I already have BoM someplace else, they get SoHG.

[Masked jackal]

7-wide, twenty of them. Usually with either the Ring of Hotek or Crimson Death as others are saying. The reason I take twenty of them is because usually the enemy focuses every bit of shooting and magic they have on them, and a mere 14-man unit doesn't usually survive, even with screeners and magic defense. At least in my hideously unlucky experience.

[Bies]

14, 7 wide.

against regular 5 wide (imo all infantry should be 6 wide not 5 at least) you get 4 extra attacks which is quite hefy at ws5, str4 as mentioned above.

I do the same with my Empire Flagellants. Not to mention should you not get to strike first for whatever reason a 5 wide enemy unit will get 6 attacks, so if worst comes to worse you'll still get 2 attacks back at least.

[Eglard]

I take everything between 14, 18, 20 + character. I have even used 3x5 formation, and found it very useful. They didn't loose a single combat and killed all of their foes in a GT. The smaller frontage can be useful sometimes. It is easier to manouver and it is easier to combo charge with exequtioners or chariots to the front of enemy units. Wheeling is also much more effective in ranks of 5, though you are sacraficing a lot in the combat aspect. Still if you are facing empire state troopers it doesn't really matter if you have 4 attacks more. 9 str 4 and 3 str 6 ap attacks should kill enough for you to win the combat massively.

EDIT. ps. BoM is much better on BG than SoHG. Give SoHG to exequtioners, who become just awesome with it. BG will strike first in most situations anyway.

[Borog]

7*2
Tower master with Crimson Death
no musician
banner is either SoHG or BoM.
Always BoM against Chaos, always SoHG against VC.

[Red...]

See my signature

I usually take standard of HG and Ring of Hotek becaus I run magic light.

[Borog]

I prefer to run the ring on a CoK champion instead, as he can pack a punch in close combat anyway. The CD on the champion makes them much more versatile in my opinion.
They can handle almost anything in close combat, and it also means they at least can hurt ethereals.

[Red...]

I prefer to run the ring on a CoK champion instead, as he can pack a punch in close combat anyway


I've experimented with doing this, because the addition of crimson death to the Black Guard is awesome, but have found that my Cold One Knights tend to get too far away from the rest of the army for the usage to be optimum (they are usually on the inner flank, whereas my Black Guard tend to be in the middle).



BoM is much better on BG than SoHG. Give SoHG to exequtioners, who become just awesome with it. BG will strike first in most situations anyway.


I've heard this argument before but aren't sure I'm convinced by it. Yes, black guard have a further charge range than most other infantry, but they don't against cavalry: even the heaviest of which have a further charge distance. The problem is that, while you can expect your Black Guard to get the charge in quite a few situations, if they don't then their T3 and poor armour save means it will really hurt. Also, while their I6 is great for helping them to strike first in the second round of combat against other rank and file, your enemy's characters will often have higher initiative and so will strike even before them.

Giving the Standard of HG to Executioners can work very well, but it is a much bigger risk. It costs a lot more (as it has to be given to the BSB), is much easier to kill (he can target and kill the T3 armourless death hag then he has killed the banner, unlike a unit standard bearer who can not be specifically targeted) and imparts its ability to a unit with lower initiative, no immunity to fear and terror (unless you buy the overpriced Tullaris (even dreadbanner isn't an option as you're already using your BSB for the Standard of HG)) and no stubborn in combat (unless supported by a cauldron of blood - yet more points). It also takes up another special unit slot.

Don't get me wrong, I do take Executioners with the Standard of HG and a Cauldron from time to time and it can be a very very good unit (especially against heavily armoued foes). But the setup shouldn't be viewed as an easy choice. The sad truth is that Black Guard with the Standard of HG will almost always do well: they'll stand and fight, even against terrible odds, and do considerabel damage. Executioners may run away, lose combat and/or lose that vital banner bearer at just the wrong time and suddenly find themselves striking last with T3 and a poor armour save.

[Tzelok]

I find that the BG are unlikely to run away, so if you are taking a larger unit of them, they can still take a charge and live to fight next round without the BoHG. Then in following rounds, they will typically be striking first, with BoM they hit hard! I definitely prefer the BoHG on my Execs as I think it benefits them greatly. I am biased though, I rarely take BG and usually run a cauldron. But when I do take BG its 14, 7*2, CD (we have been playing no magic games lately) and FC. Typically with BoM unless I'm playing against high elves or slaneeshi daemons, then they'll get the ASF

[Eglard]

Well, exequtioners with BoHG require more skill to use than BG with BoHG. But they have more potential. Str 6, killing blow, hatered and ASF means that they won't loose combats even against terrible odds. I recon that it is not an easy choice. Actually it is easy to give BoHG, since as you, Red..., said BG will always do just well.

I think that Tzelok nailed what I think about using BG. If you are worried about the first round when you might take the charge, get a few extra models to your unit. An assassin will also reduce the casualites you will suffer, or better yet, take a unit of harpies whos only purpose is to make sure you get the charge.

[Dread_knight666]

Yeah I have to agree the ASF banner is basically a waste of points. There is no real need to receive a charge with our army considering how aggressively we can screen, redirect, flank etc.. Even if BG do take a charge, they probably won't run and in the second round they will strike first any way. The banner of murder gets my vote, since extra hitting power is always valuable.

Executioners aren't meant to take a charge like all of our infantry, they should always be charging. When execs charge they will basically dominate and break anything, which is why they have value over BG. I think executioners blessed by the cauldron are probably thee most powerful unit in our book, since they can cleave through armour and large monsters like butter.

I wish the BG, executioner comparison would just die already, it's nice to see some people can appreciate both though. They are two different units meant to do different things, IMO it's about as valid as comparing DR to COK.

[Dalamar]

Unless your BG are character protectors, which in my opinion is their main job as they won't easily run away due to a panic test or another effect, taking the expensive character with them. (level 4 wizard, or Executioner's Axe Dreadlord) who would die if the unit didn't have the ASF banner.

[Mythic77]

I like 2x7 with a mixture of items, no muso

RoH switchs between Knights and black guard. If i don't take the roh with the black guard the champ has crimson death or Soulrender if hero/lord takes crimson death.

I like to take the banner of murder unless I am playing against High elves. Its easy enough to keep the black guard from being charged by anything heavy, and they rarely break and attack first in the second round.

[Borog]

Unless your BG are character protectors, which in my opinion is their main job as they won't easily run away due to a panic test or another effect, taking the expensive character with them. (level 4 wizard, or Executioner's Axe Dreadlord) who would die if the unit didn't have the ASF banner.

Yes, in that setup I always take the BoHG as well. When it's a master with Gw in there the BG don't need the armourpiercing banner so much.

But if the rumours of str4 not reducing armour save in 8th ed is true, then BoM will probably be used more often!

[Marauder mitch2]

True, people always assume BG have ASF so have a unit put it somewhere else it catches people out.

TBH i like banner of murder as they will hold the charge and the AP is golden.

But Dalamar has it spot on

[Valkyre]

IF i use BG, its just a unit of 6 models (no command or only a champ if i need to park a ring, which happens often since i like to use a lot of death hags), preferably deployed 6 x 1 (a long conga line, less enemies in BtB means less dead ones) or 2x 3 id i need it for space.

BG is a tarpit, stubborn, immune to psych, let 1 survive and ye are golden, they always were, they are even better pits now.

Why try to make 1 unit excell at everything at the cost of a lot of points? use all units for what they are good for instead. for BG that is survving, not killing.

Where is the time Dark elves where about coordination and movement instead of building boring (and ultimatly weak) deathstars?

[Dalamar]

those 6 black guard are over 120 points.
That's 6 T3, 5+ save models. So what they're stubborn if they'll all die when charged by anything they'd need to stop?
for 35 more points you get 20 warriors with full command that actually stand a chance of winning a combat.

Exacutioners are nice in units of 5 or 6 (if you have the special slots) for flank charging. But an anvil has to be able to survive the hardest hits.

[Valkyre]

Dalamar,

i use BG a bit different,

6 BG (for a look out sir for a champ, otherwise 5 is fine too) deployed 1 wide 5/6 deep will not get many hits because there is n ot much BtB to it, max 2 cav models, 3 infantry models.

if ye put an expendable champ in it, that is another round because all attacks have to be allocated on the champ (only model BtB).

this is using BG for what they were intended to do the 6th edition, be a tarpit, let 1 survive.

our current BG can be 2 things, but next to never both of them, that is:
- use their eternal hatred 2 att/ model to make them a combat monster (with all costs for assosiacted banner/ champ equipment etc)
- use their immune/ stubborn rules to make them a tarpit, and then 5 or 6 suffice IF ye deploy them 1 wide (prevent enemy attacks).

its just a matter of asking yourself what ye want them to do, and i do not like deathstars or uber units, i like to use my whole army together and then i need some tarpits that will not take up all my army points, and these never dissapointed me (while the 14/ 21 tricked out BG unit of death has been evaded/ shot to pieces/ whatever often enough (starting DE 7th edition i used those too).

Our enemies learn, but it looks like the current DE players keep on useing the old and trusted units that did good while unexpected, adapt, think outside the box and have fun games.

[Dalamar]

1 wide is too narrow to even stop anything, people will ignore and shoot it to death just as quickly.
You *do* need numbers in an anvil unit no matter what.

[Valkyre]

you tried it?

I did often enough and it works fine.

that many points saved = that many more units to field => that many more threats.

Any unit we have can be a mayor threat with a cauldron involved (except for harpies, but those do well enough without).

I agree it will not work with the 8 unit tops ye see often around, it works fine with 15 + deploymentslots i usually run, and why can i run 15+ slots? because i do not spend 300+ pts on 1 unit.

It could be me, it could be my opponents, but i can get away with anvils of 5/6 models fine, they wont kill a single goblin, who cares? that is what the other units are for.

[Eglard]

I think you have a point. That is a very cheap way having an anvil. You need to screen them though, because otherwise they will be shot or magiced to death. And some enemies will just kill the champion with a higher initiative model (character) and then strike the rest of the attacks against the BG. And if you don't have a champion, then true hammer units will easily kill six models in one go.