Will the Shadestar survive 8th?

[Delacriox]

I've read most of the rumors concerning 8th edition along with a lot of the tactics in the D.R.I.A.C.H, and the shadestar caught my eye. I started to wonder if that army would be able to survive the 25% Character minimum, 25% min core and the changes to ASF.

It may be too soon to start asking questions like but I was just curious about what everyone else thought.

[Dalamar]

Deathstars will remain in some form, but shadestar will be gone. Deathstars will need massive amount of ranks and very hard to kill heroes in the front.

[Calisson]

Hi, Delacriox, welcome in D.net!

Good question indeed.
Present deathstar rely on the combination of:
- a single large elite unit
- many characters who provide additional benefits thanks mostly to magic items (including BSB) and high Ld.

The possibility will remain to have 50% of the pts into a mammoth unit. Imagine 1000pts of Shades in a 2K game! Still more than 50...

However, the 25% limit on characters will decrease the efficiency of single über-units.
But you will now be able to take two Lord choices at 2K, only the limit at 25% (i.e. 500pts for 2K) is valid.
If you can live without the BSB, that will leave out a fairly hard über unit to play with. But less all-around than previously.
In 3K games, 750pts allow you fairly to take 2 lords and 1 BSB inside the same unit.
DEATH STAR NOT DEAD! (or according to your taste)


Not to discard the possibility that some new rule did not become yet a rumour. For example, if there was a limit of 1 character per unit, this (purely speculative) rule would ruin all death stars.

[Delacriox]

Thanks Calisson! I'm far from new, I made this about a year ago and I'vve just lurked ever since!

Here is a hero setup that is legal for 2250. I thought about changing the Ring of Darkness for the Immune to Psychology item, but decided that with the possible changes to fear and terror, the rerollable LD 9 and the near immunity to panic caused by shooting (RoD), that the unit wont need the IoP item. Thoughts?

Master
-Great Weapon
-Heavy Armor
-Shield
-Sea Dragon Cloak
-Battle Standard Bearer w/ Standard of Hag Graef

Master
-Great Weapon
-Heavy Armor
-Shield
-Sea Dragon Cloak
-3 Null Talismans


Master
-Great Weapon
-Heavy Armor
-Shield
-Sea Dragon Cloak
-Ring of Hotek


Master
-Great Weapon
-Heavy Armor
-Shield
-Sea Dragon Cloak
-Ring of Darkness

TOTAL: 546pts (25% = 562)

[Vulcan]

I'd rather see a rule that removes the usefullness of Deathstars from the game entirely. It just seems such a... weak way to win.

[Red...]

Me too Vulcan. I like Calisson's suggestion of a max of 1 character per unit, as that would really help it and stop people from character spamming so much!

[Bounce]

Games workshop just needs to put in maximum models for certain units. Shades should be 5-10.

[Deroth]

That would fix the shadestar but still doesnt fix most other deathstar units out there.

[Bitterman]

But you will now be able to take two Lord choices at 2K, only the limit at 25% (i.e. 500pts for 2K) is valid.

Wait - really??? As if high-level characters weren't too influential already! As if special characters weren't already far from special due to appearing too often!

Games workshop just needs to put in maximum models for certain units. Shades should be 5-10.

Yes, but that would involve pressing reset and rewriting the army books, which they're not doing. Sadly.

Anyway, I'm already annoyed that my 28 Black Guard that I went to the trouble of painting can't be fielded in one unit any more. Not sure why Black Guard are limited in size when no other comparable unit in the game is. (Skirmishers often are, Harpies for example in our own list, so I wouldn't complain if they did it for Shades).

[Layne]

Games workshop just needs to put in maximum models for certain units. Shades should be 5-10.

Gav knows that full well. He made exactly the same mistake with 6th Ed, it was put in an errata, and then bingo, did it again with 7th. It needs another errata. What did the erratum say, 5-15 wasn't it?

[Sulla]

I've read most of the rumors concerning 8th edition along with a lot of the tactics in the D.R.I.A.C.H, and the shadestar caught my eye. I started to wonder if that army would be able to survive the 25% Character minimum, 25% min core and the changes to ASF.

let's hope it is the end of shadestars.

It may be too soon to start asking questions like but I was just curious about what everyone else thought.

Way too early. The rumourmill is even now suggesting 25% heroes and 25% lords, which wouldn't limit much of anything...

[Bitterman]

The rumourmill is even now suggesting 25% heroes and 25% lords, which wouldn't limit much of anything...

Quite so - 1000 points is a lot to spend on characters (in a 2K game), even if you can't have one of them over 500 points...

I have the Bretonnian book to hand, and under those limits you could get a Bretonnian Lord and level 4 wizard (both with nearly 100 points of magic items), plus a BSB, plus three level 2 wizards (each of the heroes with a selection of magic items, though not fully kitted out). Granted, Bretonnian magic sucks so you probably wouldn't do this for that particular army, but points costs are comparable for Empire, O&G, Beastmen, and many others... so if this particular variant of the rumour is true, the "restrictions" on characters are actually a lot less restrictive than the current system - for some armies, at least. (Two Lords in 2000 points? Oh dear...)

[Timz]

The rumourmill is even now suggesting 25% heroes and 25% lords, which wouldn't limit much of anything...

Quite so - 1000 points is a lot to spend on characters (in a 2K game), even if you can't have one of them over 500 points...

I have the Bretonnian book to hand, and under those limits you could get a Bretonnian Lord and level 4 wizard (both with nearly 100 points of magic items), plus a BSB, plus three level 2 wizards (each of the heroes with a selection of magic items, though not fully kitted out). Granted, Bretonnian magic sucks so you probably wouldn't do this for that particular army, but points costs are comparable for Empire, O&G, Beastmen, and many others... so if this particular variant of the rumour is true, the "restrictions" on characters are actually a lot less restrictive than the current system - for some armies, at least. (Two Lords in 2000 points? Oh dear...)

Oh god, I'm glad rumors are very often unreliable...

1000 points of Lords and heroes in a 2k army would just be herohammer again.

The only thing it would really rule out would be double Dragonlords... unless the mount doesn't count in the % calculation.

[Ant]

Granted, Bretonnian magic sucks so you probably wouldn't do this for that particular army

Ah, but the lores of magic are sure to be changing to aren't they?

Perhaps my magic heavy Bret army which has been on the shelf since the end of 6th will come out to lay again...

[Calisson]

The rumourin Warseer (see hyperlink) say:
25% max characters and 25% lord 25% hero.
That means you could take 250 pts of Lord in a 1k game OR 250pts of heroes, but not both.

have a look to the magic rumours also.

[Dalamar]

I'm more than fine with maximum limit of 500 points to spend on characters, be it lords or heroes. in 2000 points games it cuts down the worst - big flying nasty dragonlords and greater daemons.

[Bitterman]

The rumourin Warseer (see hyperlink) say:
25% max characters and 25% lord 25% hero.
That means you could take 250 pts of Lord in a 1k game OR 250pts of heroes, but not both.

So that's redundant, then? It's just 25% characters, and lords/heroes doesn't make any difference any more. They are, in fact, to all intents and purposes one category. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense.

[Dalamar]

The can still be (and I hope there will be) slot limitation. 25% lords sure, but no more than one per X points.

[van Awful]

let's hope it is the end of shadestars.

for gods sake yes!

[Crawd]

let's hope it is the end of shadestars.

That's excellent news!

Sorry for those who liked shadestars but shades should have been 5-10.

[van Awful]

Sorry?? hah it's time for them to grow a pair and use some real tactics

[Ebonyphoenix]

To be honest, I hope the shadestar dies a horrid death. Although it is a hilarious concept of a unit of scouting ninjas, the game just feels spoiled the one time I put it on the table.

@Crawd: iirc, last edition shades capped at 5-15. That seems like a great compromise size due to the combat ability of greatweapons that GW decided we should enjoy.

[Red...]

I always feel like unit number caps are problematic: it seems silly to be me that at 500 points you can take 20 blackguard in a unit, but at 4000 points you can still only take 20 blackguard in a unit.

It would be nice if the unit caps were tied to the amount of points being played. So at 1000 points you could take units of up to 6 shades, at 2000 points up to 8, at 3000 up to 12, etc.

[Demetrius]

Red- Thats why you take multiple units of them . Black Guard dont need anymore than 20 anyway because of stubborn and ITP, and normally ASF.

[Bitterman]

I always feel like unit number caps are problematic: it seems silly to be me that at 500 points you can take 20 blackguard in a unit, but at 4000 points you can still only take 20 blackguard in a unit.

Yeah. Especially as I have 28 of the buggers painted...

Black Guard dont need anymore than 20 anyway because of stubborn and ITP, and normally ASF.

Need? Need? Bigger units look better. 28 Black Guard may be shockingly inefficient for their points cost but they look fantastic. Sometimes (especially in a really big game) it's nice to take something because it looks good.