Assassins under 8th??
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
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- Warrior
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- Location: Michigan
Assassins under 8th??
So I realize that this is just speculation at this point but; will assassins count toward the 25% character point total?
My two thoughts are: yes - makes the most sense with what GW is trying to do in 8th.
no - wow, it just became easy to hit the core % total and nasty for my general hunting unit of corsairs.
My two thoughts are: yes - makes the most sense with what GW is trying to do in 8th.
no - wow, it just became easy to hit the core % total and nasty for my general hunting unit of corsairs.
"You can sleep when you're dead."
- Layne
- Arnold Layne
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I'd have thought they would count neither as Core or Character, just as now.
Layne
Global Moderator. Everything but the weather.
Caveat Numptor.
Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
Mount: Dark Steed (Shiny), talisman of kurnous
Gold: 2294
Skills: Ambidexterity, Controlled Frenzy, Basic Ride, Drukh Kaganth
Class: Khainite
Global Moderator. Everything but the weather.
Caveat Numptor.
Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
Mount: Dark Steed (Shiny), talisman of kurnous
Gold: 2294
Skills: Ambidexterity, Controlled Frenzy, Basic Ride, Drukh Kaganth
Class: Khainite
Mod's note:
This discussion has little to do with tactics.
I'm moving it to Druchii discussion.
Calisson.
This discussion has little to do with tactics.
I'm moving it to Druchii discussion.
Calisson.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
Whatever you say, they ARE nerf. Stepping up rule will kill them so much.
They will remain as good character killers, which - lets be honest - is probably what they should be anyway.
They will get weaker, sure, but currently they're probably a bit overpowered so that won't be a bad thing.
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- Ebonyphoenix
- Noble
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I agree, the assassin of "I win combat by killing everything" will likely fade into fond memories. Instead, our specialist will be *gasp* a specialist in fact. We'll probably see the assassin narrow to two main builds, the Ninja Stars for monster and fast-cav hunting and the Rune+KB for character kills.
Although I will miss my model being able to hold up units when near a Cauldron, I appreciate the new balance to the fluff that this change will likely bring. (None the less, if he can't limit attacks back at himself, Curse You GW! )
Although I will miss my model being able to hold up units when near a Cauldron, I appreciate the new balance to the fluff that this change will likely bring. (None the less, if he can't limit attacks back at himself, Curse You GW! )
"Do Not Meddle In The Affairs Of Dragons, For You Are Crunchy And Taste Good With Ketchup"
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
- Silverheimdall
- Malekith's Best Friend
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Assassins are NOT unit upgrades.
Assassins ARE characters.
Assassins do NOT count against character slots nor Unit's slots.
All of this is in present rules.
What follows is conjecture.
What we cannot tell at this stage is how this will be adjusted to 8th edition, whether there will be a clarification or a modification of these rules.
If there is nothing more than the 25% cap instead of the slots as presently, and no other change, then I would NOT count assassins inside the 25% characters nor within the 25% mandatory core units nor within the 50% max special troops.
A caricatured but legal army would include nothing else than a 171pts assassin for each 79 pts of core unit (10 warriors, muso, std), resulting into an army of 1000 pts with 31.6% of core troops and nothing else!
If you drop the command, you can go as low as 28%, but then you don't reach 1000 pts exactly.
Assassins ARE characters.
Assassins do NOT count against character slots nor Unit's slots.
All of this is in present rules.
What follows is conjecture.
What we cannot tell at this stage is how this will be adjusted to 8th edition, whether there will be a clarification or a modification of these rules.
If there is nothing more than the 25% cap instead of the slots as presently, and no other change, then I would NOT count assassins inside the 25% characters nor within the 25% mandatory core units nor within the 50% max special troops.
A caricatured but legal army would include nothing else than a 171pts assassin for each 79 pts of core unit (10 warriors, muso, std), resulting into an army of 1000 pts with 31.6% of core troops and nothing else!
If you drop the command, you can go as low as 28%, but then you don't reach 1000 pts exactly.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
- Ulric darksoul
- Assassin
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The thing is that Assassins will be forced to issue challenges everytime. IF they have some sort of rule to force the other player to accept the challenge, they'll survive... if not, they most likely be killed unless they attack with a unit.
"If you're going to leave anyone alive, enslave it!"
RP: Group 27
Ulric Darksoul
WS:5 S:4 T:3 D:5 I:3
Equipment:
- Short sword, dagger, bastard sword 5 throwing stars and Ritual Dagger.
- Sea Dragon Cloak (dark green with dark blue scales)
- 1 healing balm (H) 4 healing balms
120g+12g
Skills: Controlled frenzy, two-weapons fighting
RP: Group 27
Ulric Darksoul
WS:5 S:4 T:3 D:5 I:3
Equipment:
- Short sword, dagger, bastard sword 5 throwing stars and Ritual Dagger.
- Sea Dragon Cloak (dark green with dark blue scales)
- 1 healing balm (H) 4 healing balms
120g+12g
Skills: Controlled frenzy, two-weapons fighting
IF they have some sort of rule to force the other player to accept the challenge, they'll survive... if not, they most likely be killed unless they attack with a unit.
Indeed, or if the unit they attack doesn't have a character or champ in it, the character is too tough to kill in a challenge (e.g. dwarf lord on shield bearers with master rune of steel, rune of preservation and rune of resistance - 1+ save, no attack ever counted as greater than S5, dwarf lord can re-roll saves and is immune to KB and poision attacks), or the character is too big to be killing blowed (e.g. Throgg the Troll King).
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- Malekith's Personal Guard
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I think either way, (Char that doesn't count as Char, and still doesn't count as Core), your % are gonna get REALLY skewed until it all gets(War)Hammered out, or unless you pick up less gear to hide the "bubble" (because anyone counting points and knowing our army will NOTICE- I'm beginning to watch other players mentally doing math and trying to guess where the Sin will be before I write it down lol) Thank Khaine, I'm insane and unpredictable lol
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- Masterofdarkness
- Malekith's Personal Guard
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I think Assassins will be like harpies, they do not count towards minimum core but are still core in regards to points being used up since they are specifically listed in the core section everywhere in the book
Always look for the knife from the shadows.
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Wait a minute, how do you hide a +2 flaming longsword in the shadows?
- Ebonyphoenix
- Noble
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@ L1qw1d: If you want to drive your opponents insane, just put 3-4 assassin models next to you all game. They'll go crosseyed trying to figure out where they could be. Especially if your list doesn't have one to begin with.
Back on topic: I like Calisson's summary. In the end it is up to GW as to whether they want to limit us, and count them as Character "choices" or leave them as what I term in my lists "Other". Personally, if GW decides to make them characters I hope they errata Dance of Doom into their base cost so we can actually live through a round of combat.
Back on topic: I like Calisson's summary. In the end it is up to GW as to whether they want to limit us, and count them as Character "choices" or leave them as what I term in my lists "Other". Personally, if GW decides to make them characters I hope they errata Dance of Doom into their base cost so we can actually live through a round of combat.
"Do Not Meddle In The Affairs Of Dragons, For You Are Crunchy And Taste Good With Ketchup"
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
My motto: Whether I win, lose, or draw the game; I win as long as my opponent has pulled their hair out by the end of the game.
Honoring Khaine since March 2003.
Calisson wrote:Assassins are NOT unit upgrades.
Assassins ARE characters.
Assassins do NOT count against character slots nor Unit's slots.
All of this is in present rules.
What follows is conjecture.
My personal conjecture says they're more like unit upgrades than anything else.
They are characters, but by the same rule if they don't count towards a character slot, why would they count towards the percent cap?
They seem more like a generic version of Kouran or Tullaris when viewed in the context of paying the points cost. ie, can't be taken independently.
- Tethlis
- Malekith's Best Friend
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We can debate all of this, but this is a pretty mainstream issue. If GW does not errata Assassins and what they count towards, then we can have this debate. Until then, this is pure speculation, ad we'll have to see how GW handles the issue upon 8th edition release. Now, I'm not opposed to speculation, because I think it can lead to interesting discussions, but this isn't even a fun or interesting topic .
- Sulla
- Malekith's Best Friend
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I think you may be getting confused at the distinction between characters and hero/lord slots. The rumoured limits are on heroes and lords. An assassin is neither of those (both being listed sections of each armybook). So if the percentage limit rumours are accurate, it has no effect on assassins since they are neither lords, or heroes.martian wrote:Calisson wrote:Assassins are NOT unit upgrades.
Assassins ARE characters.
Assassins do NOT count against character slots nor Unit's slots.
All of this is in present rules.
What follows is conjecture.
My personal conjecture says they're more like unit upgrades than anything else.
They are characters, but by the same rule if they don't count towards a character slot, why would they count towards the percent cap?
They seem more like a generic version of Kouran or Tullaris when viewed in the context of paying the points cost. ie, can't be taken independently.
Stepping up, however, will have a huge effect on assassins. You will really have to work hard to justify the utility of an assassin over an extra13 or 14 executioners to soak up casualties, or 10 more spearmen and a chariot, or an extra rank of knights to help them break ranks... I predict assassins will simply become a choice for big battles and themed lists now.
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- Warrior
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masterofdarkness wrote:I think Assassins will be like harpies, they do not count towards minimum core but are still core in regards to points being used up since they are specifically listed in the core section everywhere in the book
Shades(Special) can take an assassin. In 8th I'm don't think it will be much of an advantage, but who knows right now.
"You can sleep when you're dead."
- Tethlis
- Malekith's Best Friend
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Ever since the step-up rumors started circulating, it's been pretty clear that assassins will be hurt in 8th edition. The Rending Star configuration remained a reliable choice, but as others have mentioned, even that role is uncertain since skirmishers appear to be losing 360 degree line-of-sight and many movement bonuses.
Still, I don't think this will be a huge drawback since it sounds like virtually everything will gain freedom in movement. Losing 360 degree line-of-sight isn't too bad since it's easy to be facing in the right direction at the end of your move, and since marchblocking is virtually impossible against high-Leadership armies, Assassin+Shade units may even GAIN mobility.
I wouldn't write the Rending Star assassin off yet, though I do think I'll be dropping the great weapons off of his Shade escort...
Still, I don't think this will be a huge drawback since it sounds like virtually everything will gain freedom in movement. Losing 360 degree line-of-sight isn't too bad since it's easy to be facing in the right direction at the end of your move, and since marchblocking is virtually impossible against high-Leadership armies, Assassin+Shade units may even GAIN mobility.
I wouldn't write the Rending Star assassin off yet, though I do think I'll be dropping the great weapons off of his Shade escort...
- Dalamar
- Dragon Lord
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I'll be using two different assassin versions:
Rending Stars assassin = his utility remains unchanged, carve out big chunks of flesh off monsters before they reach combat. If the amount of monsters on the battlefield lessens, then the chance of this guy's appearances will as well.
Challenge Assassin = Rune of Khaine, Touch of Death, Dark Venom. His existence will largely depend on any changes (or lack thereof) to challenge rules. But even if he manages to force a lord to refuse a challenge and be pushed to the rear, out of combat, he'll do his job.
Rending Stars assassin = his utility remains unchanged, carve out big chunks of flesh off monsters before they reach combat. If the amount of monsters on the battlefield lessens, then the chance of this guy's appearances will as well.
Challenge Assassin = Rune of Khaine, Touch of Death, Dark Venom. His existence will largely depend on any changes (or lack thereof) to challenge rules. But even if he manages to force a lord to refuse a challenge and be pushed to the rear, out of combat, he'll do his job.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)
8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
- Duffman327
- Executioner
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what happens when an assassin strikes first as usual with re-rolls to hit (hatred as usual) but our initiative is higher than our opponent?
the rumour was ASF + higher INT = re-roll failed to-hit rolls. But you cant re-roll a re-roll (unless the book says otherwise).
oh bummer. a wasted rule for an extraordinary situation.
the rumour was ASF + higher INT = re-roll failed to-hit rolls. But you cant re-roll a re-roll (unless the book says otherwise).
oh bummer. a wasted rule for an extraordinary situation.
I am the Silent Wind of Doom... Whoosh!