How to handle HE with lore of life + Book of Hoeth?

[Megalodon]

I am up against a HE in a 1500p game with:
* Mage lvl 4 with lore of life with book of hoeth (spamming Dwellers Below upgraded to range 24). Usually hides behind battle line.
* Mage lvl 2 with lore of metal (to blast my hydra).
* Unit of Dragon Princes FC with hero with Ruby Ring of Ruin (fireball)
* 10 Pheonix guard to hide mage
* Spear Elves
* Archers

Any tips on to how to handle this?

[Dannyisevil]

Kinda heavy magic in 1500 points.
How many % the high elf player use for charackters?
Mage lord = 360 points?
Mage hero = 135 points?
around 500 points is 33 % of the army intoo charackters

use bolt throwers too kill on long range and anti magic stuff.

[Thanee]

Getting the Ring of Hotek near that Level 4 Mage would make his spells a lot less fun for him.

Also, AFAIK, he has to beat the complexity of the spell, even if he rolls a Double with Book of Hoeth. Would have to check the book/FAQ again, but I think it works that way.

Some Reapers should work well to destroy the unit the Mage is hiding in, though you would need a hill most likely to get his unit with no cover modifiers.

In general, against that spell specifically, small units are better than big units.

Plenty Repeater Crossbowmen, Shades, Cold One Chariots.

Divert his Dragon Princes away from the battle with a sacrificial unit.


1500 pts example army (rather shooting heavy)

160 Sorceress Level 2 with Dispel Scroll (Lore of Shadow)
225 Death Hag BSB with Cauldron of Blood

115 10 Repeater Crossbowmen with Shields, Musician
115 10 Repeater Crossbowmen with Shields, Musician
115 10 Repeater Crossbowmen with Shields, Musician
115 10 Repeater Crossbowmen with Shields, Musician

100 1 Cold One Chariot
100 1 Cold One Chariot
85 5 Shades with Additional Handweapon
85 5 Shades with Additional Handweapon
85 5 Shades with Additional Handweapon

100 1 Reaper Bolt Thrower
100 1 Reaper Bolt Thrower

I would deploy the Reapers to the far sides of your battle line, while the RXB units are left and right of the two Chariots (waiting for a counter-charge) in the center and the BSB behind them (to provide Re-Roll against Panic and Ward save to one unit mostly; try to keep all four RXB units within 12" ).

Destroy any fast units (i.e. Dragon Princes) first, then concentrate on what does the most damage to you (i.e. probably the Mage units) or whatever you can hit the easiest. The Shades are deployed left and right of his battle line, harrassing him from the sides with further shooting (concentrating on the Archers and/or Phoenix Guard).

This army is probably rather boring to play and will destroy him utterly by turn 3 or so.

Bye
Thanee

[Megalodon]

Thanx for tips. Haven´t really tried out MSU and Shades in 8th but it should help out against his Mages and Dwellers Bellow.

[Playa23]

@Tahnee
I know a cauldron of blood is sort of indispensable but with the units being so small is it still worth taking the cauldron? cheers

[Thanee]

It's basically, because the BSB (Panic protection!) is well protected there, and it can grant a Ward save.

It's not really in there for the typical reasons, but I guess when it comes to close combat, getting some extra attacks doesn't hurt either.

Bye
Thanee

[Dangerous Beans]

I think Thanee has it pretty well sussed... Although a Master on Dark Pegasus with Ring of Hotek and Lifetaker could be a nifty combo to force the mage into a unit (doesn't want to be shot at) and then follow/chase to keep in range of the ring (m5 elves = 10" march max, ring = 12", thus stay within 2" of the mage) if you can, you then wish to charge a non-champion unit that can take a hit (cold one knights or chariot would do - to survive the asf attacks of the now hiding mages' unit) so that you can try to take out the enemy mage. Might be a little OTT (like I say I think Thanee has given some good advice here) but something else to maybe consider anyway...

- Beanz

[Allhailthemachine]

Ring of hotek + Lifetaker is 55 points. Just 5 points out of reach of a Master.

[Dangerous Beans]

dang - thank you: don't know why I drew a blank in that last post!! My bad...

[Tethlis]

Dwellers Below is a good spell, but it's only great versus absurdly big or expensive low-strength units. Yes, it might really mess up a Witch Elf or Black Guard unit for a turn, but you'll probably be in combat by Turn 2 or Turn 3 anyway, or else busy blowing up the rest of his undersized army with magic and crossbow fire. The layout you described is a ridiculous amount of points to spend on characters in a 1500 point battle, so just go for getting into combat and destroy what few units he has. 8th edition is all about taking casualties but fighting on anyway, because unlike 7th edition, getting half a unit blown up by a spell isn't necessarily game-breaking since we tend to have more models on the table now.

[Tomcowlin]

I would go for a Master on a Peg, cloak of hag graef and ring of hotek, heavy armour, shield and lance. 1+ save versus shooting and the strength is halfed. He can just fly behind the lvl 4 making him miscast. The best result you may even get is that he is scared to cast because of the ring; he may try and kill the master with shooting first but that will take a while because of his equipment.

Thanee's ideas would certainly be effective; however will you enjoy a game using that army and will your opponent enjoy fighting it? I would try getting at least two combat units in there (excluding the chariots), then the army can contest in all phases. It would also warrant the cauldron further.

[Comrade igor]

Dwellers Below is a good spell, but it's only great versus absurdly big or expensive low-strength units. Yes, it might really mess up a Witch Elf or Black Guard unit for a turn, but you'll probably be in combat by Turn 2 or Turn 3 anyway, or else busy blowing up the rest of his undersized army with magic and crossbow fire. The layout you described is a ridiculous amount of points to spend on characters in a 1500 point battle, so just go for getting into combat and destroy what few units he has. 8th edition is all about taking casualties but fighting on anyway, because unlike 7th edition, getting half a unit blown up by a spell isn't necessarily game-breaking since we tend to have more models on the table now.

I actually see it more as a elven character assassination spell with added benefits of killing half of a unit aswell.

[Garbidge]

@Thanee: I think you're over the limit on heroes that list

With lore of life, throne of vines means that he's not likely to be very scared of the ring. However, he has no protection, so it should be easy to kill him in combat. If you have a unit or three of 8-10 harpies, you can probably suicide charge the phoenix guard with them, lose about 6 to the phoenix guards attacks and then get 2 or three harpies attacking his wizard; two such suicide charges should be the wizard dead; 1 charge will do if you can get blessed shades or dark riders instead of harpies.
If he moves to avoid a front charge from the harpies, so you can't get at the wizard, then he probably has to turn to the side, levaing yor army out of the front arc so he can't dwellers below you.

The spears are easy targets for crossbows, or can be tied up by spears of your own. If you can then get a chariot, hydra or some special infantry in their flank then they're gone.

The same fast units for assassinating the mage should easily handle the archers, if you can keep to the flank.

Dragon princes are a pain, but they're also expensive. bolt throwers can make a dent in them, or executioners or monsters, or you could take a character in a block of spears, corsairs or black guard and try to take them with KB from the cauldron.

I would probably suggest a list that looks something like:

Bsb with cauldron
level 2 wizard, dark magic, arcane item of choice if you can fit one

2 units of 8 shades with extra hand weapons
30 spears with command
2 units of 10 crossbows
2 units of dark riders, with crossbows if you can spare the points, or maybe a single bugger unit instead
about 15 executioners

a bolt thrower


I haven't added the points up exactly, but you can probably make something from that. Basic plan being that shades and dark riders rush around the sides of his army and hunt his level 4; the bolt thrower takes out a dragon prince or two, and lures them into range of the executioners and/or spears, which should be flat against your board edge first turn so they are out of dwellers below range (hopefully). Crossbows shoot his archers or spears, or maybe even the phoenix guard.

[Thanee]

@Thanee: I think you're over the limit on heroes that list

Good catch!

10pts too many in heroes.

Ok, so the CoB would probably have to go, to be replaced by a BSB Master (or the Sorceress be upgrade to a Level 3). I would not drop the Dispel Scroll against such a magic-heavy list.

With lore of life, throne of vines means that he's not likely to be very scared of the ring.

Well, does Throne of Vines work against a Miscast suffered through the casting of Throne of Vines itself? Otherwise, he might still be scared a bit, especially, since you will certainly dispel ToV, if possible, and he cannot really waste too many dice on that one, otherwise he won't be able to get Dwellers out at all (he needs those 6 PD for that spell).

Bye
Thanee

[Dyvim tvar]

With lore of life, throne of vines means that he's not likely to be very scared of the ring.

That simply points out the #1 thing you need to do when facing a level 4 with Lore of Life -- stop Throne of Vines!!!

Seriously, unless it is cast with irresistible force, stop it every time your opponent tries to cast it. If you prioritize stopping it, at the very least, you'll cause your opponent to have to roll more Power Dice on Throne of Vines to try to get it irresistible, which leaves fewer dice for casting other stuff.

Also, if your opponent gets it through, use Power Dice to dispel in your own magic phase so that your opponent needs to try to re-cast Throne of Vines again in his next turn.

[Auere]

What about a supreme sorceress on DP with death magic casting the fate of bjuna and caress of laniph?

In your first turn, fly her up to the wizards face and land a bomb on him. Use a power scroll if you must.

[Deathsshadow]

I find that bolt throwers are brilliant against dragon princes, I like to throw the -D3 movement spell on them to. Those S6 ignore armour save bolts can kill a couple per turn, reducing their usefulness quickly, particularly due to the new rules that have gimped cavalry charges heavily (i'm looking at you steadfast and stepping up). They will struggle to really kill much as they cant rely on the charge-break-overrun tactics of old.

[Megalodon]

My Army:
lvl 4 Sorc (death)
lvl 2 Sorc (death)
3*10 Xbow
2*5 Dark Riders
8 Shades
1 Hydra
1 Chariot

The result of the game:

Round 1:
He kills my Lvl 4 Sorc and 8 Xbowmen with Dwellers Bellow and another 10 Xbowmen from shooting.
I surround him with 8 Shades and 2*5 Dark Riders and Hydra marches up center alone.

Round 2:
He rolls 4 Magic dice and nothing happens. Chill Wind prevent his 20 archers from shooting flaming arrows at Hydra.
Hydra kills 18 archers + lvl 2 Mage with breath.

Round 3-6:
Try to ignore his Dragon Princes and kills rest of his army with Hydra, Dark Riders and Shades.
2 Xbowmen charges his Lvl 4 sorc and kills him after a 3 round pillow fight.

Thanx again for all tips.

Now my friend asks how can I kill a DE army like that.

[Thanee]

Round 1:
He kills my Lvl 4 Sorc ... with Dwellers Bellow

LOL! This is exactly why the example army list I wrote up above was so character light.

Round 3-6:
Try to ignore his Dragon Princes and kills rest of his army with Hydra, Dark Riders and Shades.

Well done!

2 Xbowmen charges his Lvl 4 sorc and kills him after a 3 round pillow fight.

Haha, nice!

Now my friend asks how can I kill a DE army like that.

Maybe you guys should come to some sort of gentleman's agreement on what to field.

Balanced armies are more fun to play overall.

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

I find that bolt throwers are brilliant against dragon princes, I like to throw the -D3 movement spell on them to. Those S6 ignore armour save bolts can kill a couple per turn...

6x S4 AP shooting is more effective against them pretty much always.

Bye
Thanee

[Megalodon]

LOL! This is exactly why the example army list I wrote up above was so character light.

Maybe you guys should come to some sort of gentleman's agreement on what to field.

Well I learnt it the hard way with the lvl 4 sorc, she will stay home next fight.

I am thinking of a suicide elves list next time:
2 Heros (1 BSB)
25 Spear Elves
20 Crosairs (2 HW)
15 Executioners
12 Black Guards
2*5 Cold One Knights
2*5 Harpies

(models I got)

Dwellers Bellow will hurt if he goes with life. He is thinking of Fire instead to handle my Hydra.
Some of the unit will reach him and should handle him pretty easy then.