ultimate room clearers

[Deathsshadow]

This has probably been done before but I was so impressed with the sheer nastiness of it I just wanted to say.

scenario - watchtower

I had 10 shades in the tower that was charged by a unit of swordmasters, my opponent was really chuffed and boasting how his unit was going to tear me apart as they all got to fight with full attacks at strength 5. His swordmasters wiped out my shades easily. He bragged, he laughed and triumphantly held the tower.

Up steps my unit of 10 witches, They charged the tower. My cauldron, just because it had nothing better to do blessed them with +1 attack. My wonderful shadow sorceress then decided to bless them with okrams mindrazor. I have never thrown so many strenght 8 attacks before

1 attack base +1 frenzy +1 AHW +1 cauldron for a total of 41 attacks for the unit, at initiative of 6 compared to his I5. The smirk was quickly wiped from his face when I rolled those 41 dice, with hatred and at strength 8. I managed to inflict 26 unsaved wounds on his unit of swordmasters, completely obliterating them. The look on his face was awesome.

In the next turn, for some reason he decided to charge his cavalry at the tower to clear out my witches, needless to say, the 8 silver helms were torn apart just as quickly.

Now I hope I have read all the rules right and havent completely messed up. :p

[Darktan]

nope, i think you've read it right, except your HE opponent seems to have forgotten to use his Always Strikes First which all of his elves get (and unlike everyone elses, is not cancelled by always strikes last) which should have put a few wounds on the witches, if not killed them before you struck.

a bigger unit of witches would have simply absorbed the initial hits, and then wiped out the swordmasters.

not sure why he used cavalry against the tower, i'm not sure if they get the lance bonus / steed attacks against building entrenched units.

[Afeinman]

If you spend two major enhancements (cauldron, plus the most powerful Lore of Shadow spell) on one of the best close combat units DE get, then you darn well *better* kill whatever they hit!

The trick is getting this combo off in the first place, of course. He should have been prioritizing dispelling that casting...

[Dalamar]

Are you sure HE ASF is better than regular ASF? I doubt it, meaning Sword Masters would fight in I order (which is less than Witch Elves)

As for cavalry... when assaulting a building they count as infantry, so they lose the mount (both attack and bonus to save) as well as any lance attacks. They go in with hand weapon and shield (and gain parry too)

[Venkh]

Dont the witches attack after the swordmasters though?

I though that you chose 10 models each and they fight it out.

Shouldnt it have been Swordmasters 12 attacks 8 hits 6.6 kills leaving only around 3 witches to attack?

Does step up work in buildings or something?

You would still have won but would have taken some casualties in the process

[Darktan]

yes, HE ASF is better than regular ASF, and ignores the penalty that normally great weapons incur. (and sould also get the re-rolls to hit vs I5 or lower as stated in the HE FAQ), so as venkh pointed out, there would only be a couple of witches left to strike at the swordmasters.

thanks for clarifying the assaulting buildings with cavalry Dalamar.

and to Venkh, yes, regardless of the number of casualties suffered, the detachment sent out to fight is always 10, assuming the unit has enough models to do so

[Deathpepper]

Are you sure HE ASF is better than regular ASF? I doubt it, meaning Sword Masters would fight in I order (which is less than Witch Elves)

From the HE FAQ:
Q. The Speed of Asuryan special rule states that “all High Elves
have the special rule Always Strike First, regardless of the weapon
they are wielding.” How does this interact with a great weapons
Always Strike Last? (p43)
A. The army book will take precedence in this situation. For
example, a Sword Master would strike first with his great
weapon. If his Initiative value is equal to or higher than his
opponent’s, he will also benefit from a re-roll to hit.

[Greg]

I'll do you one better. I had the exact same combo go off today but they had the banner of eternal flame and re-rolled failed to wounds. I believe I killed approx 28 saurus, unfortunately it had a limited impact on the game but it still felt nice rolling that much damage with 9 witches I lost half my unit to salamanders before getitng stuck into the building.

[Sulla]

Does step up work in buildings or something?

Yes, it does. Stupidly, you choose a 10 man assault party, then if you suffer casualties, you replenish them, menaing an unscrupulous player could put 10 rank and file vs the swordmasters, then after attacks and a few casualties, replace a wounded witch with a hag or death hag. Only really works if your heroes attack after their rank and file attacks though, so good vs HE or good if you're a dwarf or saurus.

[Calisson]

And it is a loophole for most armies vs DE.
We have a higher I than most, therefore we should suffer from this loophole more than most (except with Execs).

One objection though:
p.61, The dead bodies are removed from the last rank.
The charging unit still has its ranks and files, it is just that any 10 models are chosen to fight.
If any of the chosen 10 is killed, you remove instead a model from the last rank of the unit.

Example unit, where C = character or champion, R = Rank & File:

RCCCR
RRRRR
RRRRR

The unit charges a building.
The player chooses 10 "R" to fight.
The ASF defender kills 5 of them. The killed ones are taken from the last ranks. Among them, 3 were designed to fight.

Now the unit looks like:
RCCCR
RRRRR

The 10 chosen can fight back, except the 3 that have been killed.
The "C" were not chosen in the first place. The rules are not easy to interpret but it could be argued that the 3 "C" don't fight.

[Meteor]

I sure hope that's how it works, I had the same result except with BGs instead of WEs assaulting the Watchtower which was held by twenty five WoC including a mage and a BSB. He obviously didn't pick either of them nor his champ as part of the ten man assault party, otherwise I would've made a bloody mess of them with my ten KB Occam Mindrazor BGs. I slaughtered like seventeen of them and I was smiling broadly (didn't expect Mindrazor to go off without IF from a lv2!). Then it quickly disappeared when, after following the step up type rule, he didn't have ten regular troops left therefor his mage and BSB and champ joined in the fight instead. Smacked me back down to earth hard and I wasn't pleased with that.

[Deathsshadow]

We were playing HE ASF incorrectly, neither of us realised it isnt negated by the great weapons. I call his mistake though as its his job to know his armies special rules. The combat would have gone much differently than it did. Shame really, but against any other opponent it would work exactly as I have suggested I presume.

[Meteor]

don't you hate hollow victories?

(i accidentally placed 3000pts worth of models on the table once, when i was facing 2500pts of dwarves haha)

[Sulla]

The rules are not easy to interpret but it could be argued that the 3 "C" don't fight.

There are no guidelines on how to choose replacements. That's the problem. i reccommend houseruleing it with your opponent before the game.

[Calisson]

The rules are not easy to interpret but it could be argued that the 3 "C" don't fight.

There are no guidelines on how to choose replacements. That's the problem. i reccommend houseruleing it with your opponent before the game.

RAW don't say that the killed guys are replaced, but are supposed to be replaced.
RAW just say that you remove dead bodies from the last rank.
If the ones effectively removed were not fighting (among the chosen 10), then the 10 ones in fight can still fight (they were not removed, in effect).
If the removed ones were among the fighting ones, RAW don't say anywere that they are replaced, but only are "supposed" to be replaced.
I could argue that dead bodies supposed to be replaced can only supose to fight!