Playing games with small circle of friends! Tailoring issues

Svarthofthi · Post by **Svarthofthi** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:59 am

Hey guys, it has been a while. How's things? Rich on plunder and slaves, I trust? Good, good.

When it comes to Warhammer I really only play with my friends, and occasionally I'll play at a local shop, however this will not come into play with this situation.

Problem is, the friend I play most typically plays high toughness armies, and in one case high toughness and high strength (ogres).

My roommate who I play the most has ogres or VCs. I have the most problems with ogres cause I try to build generalized lists but when he plays ogres, which he seems to be into lately, he just seems to trounce me every time.

2x 24 corsairs, one with frenzy banner both full company
10 cold one knights, full company
cauldron of blood,
shadow supreme sorceress with sacrificial dagger, BDE, and opal amulet
35 shield spearmen, full company
bsb master with hydra banner in CoKs lance full mundane
Dreadlord with sword of striking, potion of strength, AoES, Dragonbane Gem, full mundane kit on cold one with CoKs
war hydra

this is my generalized list that I'm playing people with, its from memory as I'm in the library right now, I'll clean this post later haha, if its too hard to read. It's built from 2500 points.

Thing is, I only have Dark Elves as I'm not made of money and haven't yet sailed on my Hakseer cruise. My other friends have a couple of different armies, but its no surprise when they ask me to play what I'll be playing.

What should I do? What are your thoughts, fellow Druchii? Perhaps you have some advice, how do you play with your friends?

Greenwhy · Post by **Greenwhy** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:27 am

It's going to be tough if you are using a general list to play against a tailored list. Why don't you tailor a list for each battle depending on which army you will up against? Personally I prefer not to play like that so I try and get into as many campaigns and tournaments as I can where people have to play several games with the same list. Perhaps you could organise some kind of campaign in your group of friends?

It seems that a lot of people favour shadow magic, including yourself. I find it most useful when playing high T armies for a few reasons:
1) Okkams Mindrazor and The Withering both provide massive benefit in helping you to wound.
2) High T units often have low I which makes Pit of Shades and The Penumbral Pendulum more useful.
3) High T armies often have High S which makes The Enfeebling Foe useful and Melkoth's
4) Mystifying Miasma is always useful.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:54 am

Or just play Death and watch him cry as you purple sun his expensive ogres into gemstones... Fire it along his lines for even more joy.

(And the funny thing is, purple sun isn't even the best spell in the lore; that honour goes to soulblight)

Svarthofthi · Post by **Svarthofthi** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:34 am

Ugh, yeah, my last game I attempted a pit of shades. I miscasted and missed the unit entirely. Total fail :/

Greenwhy · Post by **Greenwhy** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:02 am

That's unfortunate but it doesn't make it a bad spell

Cat-the-odd · Post by **Cat-the-odd** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:01 pm

Hi,

Though it seems not to be the threads intent, I'd like to comment your army composition.

You come with
3x S3-many-body blocks
1x Hard hitter
1x Very hard hitter (on charge)
Buff & Debuff (Lvl4 & Bloodbathtub)

That's no redirection units and no ranged attacks (the sorc debuffs) to lessen the enemies numbers. At least a flock of Harpies should be with any "all comers" army to get warmachines or for redirection/sacrifice.
The setting of the Hydra-BSB CoK with a dreadlord inside is a tough thing (I imagine them getting +1A from the Bloodtub). So your Highborn fulfills an undefined role here. I mean LD10 you can access for the CoK with a magic banner and some attacks you can get by a noble (spreading LD10 with that banner) or more Knights.
I think the Potion setup is as a one-hit-wonder not as good as permanent more strength (Whip of agony is with +1A and S5 really good!).

Reiterating, I'd come up with somewhat like that:

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Supreme Sorceress, lvl4, Black Dragon Egg, Opal Amulet, Sacrificial Dagger, Lore of Shadows - 330 Pts.

Death Hag, Cauldron of Blood - 200 Pts.
Master, Lance, HA, Shield, SDC, CO, BSB, Hydra banner - 214 Pts.
Master, General, CO, Whip of agony, Armour of Darkness - 150 Pts.

24 Black Arc Corsairs, 2xHw, M, S, C, Sea Serpent Std. - 290 Pts.
24 Black Arc Corsairs, 2xHw, M, S, C, Banner of Murder - 290 Pts.
35 Dark Elf Warriors, Shields, M, S, C - 260 Pts.
12 Crossbowmen, Shields, M - 137 Pts.
5 Harpies - 55 Pts.
5 Harpies - 55 Pts.

10 CO Knights, M, S, C, The ohter Trickster's Shard, Std. of Discipline - 340 Pts.

War Hydra - 175 Pts.

Total: 2496

--------www.online-codex.de-----------------------------------------

Anyway. Ask your friends for "liege"-like fixing the Army lists for one month or so. That might increase the fun. (Maybe allowing 250P. change after each game).

Have fun.

CAT

Svarthofthi · Post by **Svarthofthi** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:01 pm

Greenwhy wrote:That's unfortunate but it doesn't make it a bad spell

For sure, I love magic, I tend to throw a lot of dice and risk miscast as I'd rather get a niche spell off without the worry of dispel and risked all and lost there. Funny thing was I rolled the dice and it nearly ended on target but hit a model and rolled off to an arrow cleanly. I was devastated haha.

Cat

Yeah most of the composition was personal choice as I don't care much for crossbows, as you get a couple turns of shooting that might cause a couple casualties and, to me, requires synergy with magic to really be effective. Also, I just like meat grinders, haha.

However, I like what you did with the CoKs, getting rid of the dreadlord is smart. I take him out of love, haha, but masters are more cost effective and can be defined just as well as a dreadlord for a particular role. The idea of using masters instead can be a template for using my lord points more freely. I like this very much.

Redirection is a kind of a thing to me. I'm between thinking its smart and thinking that it feels like abuse sometimes. However, I do take what you said to heart, that new list provides quite a bit of flexibility while still holding on to my general purpose.

Thanks for the advice

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:30 pm

It's also worth mentioning that two of the best combat options we have against Ogres are Witch Elves and Black Guard. Both of them are strong enough to be included in any all-comers list, and they're especially strong against Ogres when buffed with the Cauldron and Lore of Shadows. Your hordes of Strength 3 Core are going to struggle to be really decisive at getting through all of those Ogres wounds, especially if he gets off any Gut Magic against you. With only the Hydra and Cold Ones as a real combat threat, you'll be hard-pressed to pick the fights of your choosing, especially since you have no shooting to pressure the Ogres into fighting quickly. He has all the time in the world to arrange the fights that he prefers, which would probably consist of gnoblar blocks slowing down your best troops while his Ogres messily devour your tender juicy Core choices.

If you're going to build that take-all-comers list, I would really advocate finding yourself a third threatening unit, and trying to work in some kind of missile presence. Even if the repeater crossbows don't do much, noone likes to sit there and be shot at, and it gives you dominant control of the game if you can stress out your opponent by making him worried about the shooting phase.

Lastly, could you give us an overview of what your opponent's army list usually looks like?

Svarthofthi · Post by **Svarthofthi** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:04 am

Tethlis wrote:
Lastly, could you give us an overview of what your opponent's army list usually looks like?

Tyrant + Slaughtermaster usually
Bruiser BSB

10 bulls with accompaniment

2x 4 lead belchers

7 Ironguts wth full accompaniment

20 gnoblar fighters

Gnoblar scraplauncher

Hunter with sabretusks.

This is what it usually looks like as he refuses to proxy with the ogres this is nearly every model he has, matches 2500 points with good wargear. There is some mace in close combat that hits with a small template weapon.

We're bound by models usually, we try not to proxy too much but I do have ten black guard and 10 witch elves I haven't built yet that I should take care of.

As for shooting your arguments are sound, however, with the corsairs my plan revolved around luring the enemy into a combat with them and buffing them with occum's mindrazor and shredding them apart with attacks +1 from the cauldron. I had won a few with my current list as most of them eventually became afraid of charging as whatever did got mindrazor barring losing the spell permanently via miscast. So in my mind the lack of shooting was more than made up for by inherent control of the battlefield on my terms concerning that usually most melees would go in my favor. Problem with ogres is surviving long enough to get there.

Minus reaper bolt throwers (MAYBE) I can't see, without the aid of magic, my shooting providing enough of a buffer in wounds to help my melee survive. No matter what unit it is. That mace is just meeeean.

In terms of controlling the movement phase, I would employ melkoth's mystifying miasma on the 10+ to reduce the amount of movement a particular unit would get if he was gearing for the charge and in my own defense it worked, out of the 7 charges that were made, 4 of them were mine 2 of his were on my warrior spearmen determined to take the charge, that success was due to melkoth's respectively, along with a little help from the dice. However, there were some over-charges he got, heh.

You guys are right though, this list is far from generalized. Sigh, I guess I DO need more shooting

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:57 am

I've found ogres go down very easily to AP St-3 attacks due to their pitiful armour save.

Stop their magic and use your own to soften them up. They got a huge boost from 8th but they are still far from a top line army. He is also running a fairly nice list compared to what is possible.

L1qw1d · Post by **L1qw1d** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:59 am

huge boost? really? I think the Bull Charge is about the only thing I've had to worry on- esp the times when it's a train of 3 by 4 that regenerate (thats what he keeps rolling. he's beginning to hate seeing me at games because he KNOWS what spell is coming lol)

Svarthofthi · Post by **Svarthofthi** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:40 am

Yeah I don't really play on a pro level though. When its a casual thing I think the armies are more even as I know less about my army and their's so there is less to exploit and maximize on our part. Don't take that the wrong way though, I meant more along the lines that our lists really are kind of far away from being tournament quality.

Having trouble getting over my skill humps as it is though, I like the idea of the armor piercing, course I need three wounds a piece to bring an ogre down. Winning combat without model death seems unlikely, more so if you consider them getting the charge.

On the subject of magic, yeah the miscast I mentioned above I was attempting to pit of shades his slaughtermaster

, oh, if only it had happened.

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:50 pm

If you're looking to work more shooting elements into your list, then you might consider Shades + Assassin with Manbane and Rending Stars. They're great for stalking flanks and really putting some hurt on a variety of opponents, and their model count is quite low for collecting purposes. Generally I find that Shades tend to perform better in the shooting phase than twice their point cost in repeater crossbowmen, so that might be another option to consider. Ballistic Skill 5 and an easy chance at short range is much more consistent and reliable than regular crossbowmen, and seeing a pack of ninjas on their flanks is great for distracting/disrupting an enemy advance.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:15 am

Tethlis wrote:... and seeing a pack of ninjas on their flanks is great for distracting/disrupting an enemy advance.

Until someone throws a spell at them and they go poof. I used additional hand weapon shades in 7th and got a couple glorious flank charges with KB, but they were only effective against slowish, low shootng, armies like chaos warriors and orks. Versus everything else they died too easily.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:15 am

12 attacks from 6 xhw shades absolutely mashes through enemy war machines, even dwarven ones. I usually try to include one unit in my all comers lists. You can't always rely on harpies due to them being out of the Ld bubble often.

Svarthofthi · Post by **Svarthofthi** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:10 pm

In the case of a Master engineer I wonder if an assassin would be rugged enough to cut him down.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:37 am

Svarthofthi wrote:In the case of a Master engineer I wonder if an assassin would be rugged enough to cut him down.

Blade wind is the best solution to war machines. Other than that CoKs do pretty well

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:42 am

Rabidnid wrote:
Svarthofthi wrote:In the case of a Master engineer I wonder if an assassin would be rugged enough to cut him down.

Blade wind is the best solution to war machines. Other than that CoKs do pretty well

As long as you think you can get through all those dwarven dispel dice an +'s to dispel. Dwarven antimagic can be quite... formidable.

Is the master engineer the hero level guy? If so, he can no longer join a war machine but can boost one nearby one and gain look out sir from them. It is relatively easy to make him immune to assassins/shaades though with a 1+ armour save and immunity to poison and killing blows.

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:45 am

Rabidnid wrote:Until someone throws a spell at them and they go poof. I used additional hand weapon shades in 7th and got a couple glorious flank charges with KB, but they were only effective against slowish, low shootng, armies like chaos warriors and orks. Versus everything else they died too easily.

Which spell did you have in mind, exactly? Warhammer isn't exactly heavy on magic missiles these days, and I'm okay with an opponent using Pit, Dwellers, Purple Sun or Final Transmutation on Shades if he really wants to...

Evem if you're up against someone who does have a pile of magic missiles, then it's not too difficult to use Shades more conservatively. Even deployed as part of your regular battle line, they're still great missile troops.

I don't find Shades to be much use for warmachine hunting though, if the opponent has deployed his warmachines behind his main line. The same applies for cavalry choices as well. Unless your opponent is setting up flank shots with bolt throwers/cannons, or deliberately trying to split your warmachine hunters by setting a lone machine as bait, I find it very hard to effectively hunt them with anything short of multiple Harpy mobs or a Pegasus character.

Gazcal · Post by **Gazcal** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:22 pm

the best way to kill ogres is a dreadlord with pendant in a 10 man unit of COK just slam into his units you can cause massive amounts of damage and they have low LD so will most likly flee and they cant stomp you as you are cavelry

.otherwise just magic him gut magic is rubbish

sure you they can get +1S and +1 T and regen and stuff but they cant use loads of dice to cast it while we can and they have short range.

also charge them avoide them charging you when ever you can.

Ichiyo1821 · Post by **Ichiyo1821** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:44 am

Ogres can hit hard but if you hit them harder first they fall easily. High initiative, high strength attacks usually do it. If you field medium sized COK with COB Blessing, there is literally nothing you can take out in one turn at the charge. You could lose a knight or two but that's just about it.

dreadlord7476 · Post by **dreadlord7476** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:15 am

Well when it comes to gut magic I find the trick is in the first couple turns let him get them thou and beat up his slatermaster then in ur magic faze us dispel them cause most are remains in play

Handsome jack · Post by **Handsome jack** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:47 pm

most usefull might be the shadow spell that lowers their toughness, cast first a lot of people let it slide by saving their DD for your offensive spells but lowering their T bu d3 is better than lowering their S as corsairs will mow through t1-3 ogres pretty easily

Zenith · Post by **Zenith** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:19 pm

Ive always had succes against ogres. It may have to do with the ogre general and his army ofcourse, but some succesfull mentions are:

- move close to them, so they dont get the bull charge. (charge them better stil)

- crossbowmen and shades are very good. They have little armour. lots and lots of little bolts will weaken them.

- witches and even corsairs do wonders. Just remeber not to let them charge you from a long range, simply charge them or go very close by them.