Dragonlord?

[Bladewail]

Hello

Having recently gotten into Dark Elves im slightly miffed by the fact that everyone seems to be slaves to the supreeme sorceress build to an army. Maybe the fact that its absolutely devestating has something to do with it.

Long story short, I want to do something slightly different and was wondering how valid a Dreadlord on a black dragon is? Also my main reason is... well... its a dragon?

He can only comfortably (and mathematically possible) fit into an army of atleast 2000 pts, which is a slight drawback. I know that a supreeme sorc on a dragon IS possible, but the insane amount of points this costs is apalling, and since sorcs will try to avoid combat and a dragon wants nothing more THAN to get into the thick of things, I'v got my doubts about that perticular combo.

I will of course bring atleast one lvl 2 to the table, since a Dark elf army without magic is like skink without his poison: Nothing but irritating, and soon to be dead.

So does anyone have any hints and tips concerning black dragons, as well as a good build for the dreadlord riding him?

[Phierlihy]

The builds for Dragon-riding Dreadlords hasn't changed much except that now you can add in the Crown of Command as well. It is still a valid build but you'll have to make you're own decisions as to whether the sacrifices are worth the coolness factor.

[Tethlis]

There have been some recent threads on this, so you may want to dig around for more information, but I speak from experience when I say that the dragon rider is still viable. As phierlihy points out though, there's a risk/reward factor that you'll have to evaluate for yourself. Not only are you going to miss out on the usefulness of a Lord-level caster, but the dragon is very fragile and vulnerable against some opponents. With the laser-guided accuracy of most warmachines these days, as well as the different variety of dangerous spells out there, the dragon has to work pretty hard to stay alive before the fight.

Of course, that's why the Crown of Command is very useful. With the crown, you can toss the Dreadlord into the first available combat as soon as possible to try and avoid the dangers of shooting and direct-damage magic.

Another major complaint about the dragon is that he can no longer break enemy units single-handedly, due to Steadfast. This is true, but I don't see it as a drawback. Use the dragon as part of your combined charges, sort of like a hyper-dangerous chariot, and he will easily tip virtually any combat in your favor.

One advantage of the dragon now is that most opponents aren't accustomed to seeing dragons any more, and slow regiment-heavy armies have a very hard time countering a dragon in combat. If you can survive shooting/magic, it's very easy to get a dragon into the enemy backline and simply gather free Victory Points from their weakest units.

Ultimately though, you'll probably never want to charge a dragon into combat all alone. If a unit champion declares a challenge, they can force the dragon to move from the flank/rear of the enemy unit and fight it to the front, and dragon's attacks are ignored for Overkill if the Dreadlord successfully kills the enemy champion in a duel. Always make sure your dragons are supported by a secondary character or unit champion to accept that challenge.

[Dyvim tvar]

The reason I don't use a dragon these days is because of all the warmachines out there these days ...

[Greenwhy]

The reason I don't use a dragon these days is because of all the warmachines out there these days ...

Yes I agree. Cannon weapons in particular can be especially effective. You can mitigate this with Cloak of Hag Graef or PoK. Also, I feel that the need for war machine hunters is even greater in a dragonlord list.

[Bladewail]

Thanks for the great replies. Its good to know that the dragon is still viable, with some reparations for dealing with warmachines. Snuggling in another unit of 5 dark riders and some harpies into the list seems to be in order, asuming im fighting anything that CAN field warmachines. Looking forward to converting my High elf dragon later this evening.

[Thenick18]

Ultimately though, you'll probably never want to charge a dragon into combat all alone. If a unit champion declares a challenge, they can force the dragon to move from the flank/rear of the enemy unit and fight it to the front, and dragon's attacks are ignored for Overkill if the Dreadlord successfully kills the enemy champion in a duel. Always make sure your dragons are supported by a secondary character or unit champion to accept that challenge.

Why? Wouldn't the champion have to make way to get into contact with the character. this seems very counter to the game mechanics, if I charge in the rear, I can be challenged, then I automaticall move to the front of the unit? This does not sound right at all...

Since a champion is a character except for that it cannot leave a unit, it would have to "make way" to gain base to base contact for a challenge. You don't just flip the unit that charged to the side of the unit the champion/character would be.

[Vulcan]

In this case, I think it's assumed that the lone character makes his way around to where the other half of the challenge is...

[Thenick18]

And that is the problem with the statement, we don't assume and can't assume, according to the rules the champion (a character in all respects except being able to leave the unit) would have to make way...

If you really want to play your matches with an abstract rule, go ahead, but this is pretty clearly defined in the rulebook.

[Geist]

The main problem always comes back to, being shot off your mount. There are only a handful of cannons out there, but it only takes 1 lucky roll to knock you clear off your mouth in 1 shot.

[Vulcan]

Page 102, "Challenges", first sentence under the FIGHTING A CHALLENGE heading:

"If a character accepts the challenge, move him into base contact with the challenger."


So, if the character issueing the challenge (the challenger) is in the front rank of the unit, and the Dragonlord (the challenged) is charging the back of the unit, then the Dragonlord moves to the front. Now, if the Dragonlord had issued the challenge, then the charcter in the unit would have to Make Way to the rear.

If a Champion has issued the challenge, now things get interesting. Champions cannot use the Make Way rule. Furthermore, I reference P.92, Command Groups, first sentence under the POSITION WITHIN THE UNIT heading (and this was considered important enough that it is actually in bold text in the BRB):

"Command groups must always be placed in the unit's front rank and move automatically if the unit reforms."

Got that? The Champion must be in the front of the unit, period. Now it no longer matters who issues the challenge, the Character must move to the Champion in the front of the unit.

[Vulcan]

EDIT: Whoops, double post!

[Phierlihy]

Actually Vulcan, you're not really right on this one. Also per page 102, only models in base to base conact with the unit containing the issuer of the challenge could accept in the first place. So a unit charged in the rear is not allowed to accept with the unit champion (unless of course the unit beign challenged has only one rank and the Champion is touching the enemy unit). So even if a character were hiding in the front rank and a challenge were issued from behind, if the character had not used his "make way" ability, he couldn't accept anyway. The rules on page 102 also state that the player issuing the challenge nominates of his character or champion models to issue the challenge but if he does not have a suitable model in the fight (emphasis mine) a challenge cannot be issued. Hence a model hiding in the front rank refusing to get into base to base contact with the enemy can't issue a challenge.

If another player tries to somehow teleport your character from the rear of his unit to the front, he's trying to game you. Pick up your models, thank him for a *really fun game*, and go find someone else to play with.

[Thenick18]

Actually Vulcan, you're not really right on this one. Also per page 102, only models in base to base conact with the unit containing the issuer of the challenge could accept in the first place. So a unit charged in the rear is not allowed to accept with the unit champion (unless of course the unit beign challenged has only one rank and the Champion is touching the enemy unit). So even if a character were hiding in the front rank and a challenge were issued from behind, if the character had not used his "make way" ability, he couldn't accept anyway. The rules on page 102 also state that the player issuing the challenge nominates of his character or champion models to issue the challenge but if he does not have a suitable model in the fight (emphasis mine) a challenge cannot be issued. Hence a model hiding in the front rank refusing to get into base to base contact with the enemy can't issue a challenge.

If another player tries to somehow teleport your character from the rear of his unit to the front, he's trying to game you. Pick up your models, thank him for a *really fun game*, and go find someone else to play with.

Finally, a reply with logic, I guess I wasn't portraying my stance too well. I knew I was right, just couldn't grasp where the actual logic was coming from.

[Diablo]

Actually YOU're not really right on this one. Also per page 102, only models in base to base contact with the UNIT containing the issuer of the challenge could accept in the first place.

You charged his UNIT in the rear. Your character doesnt issue chalenge. His champ does. You have to accept. Since you accept, first your model moves in BtB contact with the issuer of the chalenge and is teleported in the front.

Its cheezy but its RAW.

[Thenick18]

Actually YOU're not really right on this one. Also per page 102, only models in base to base contact with the UNIT containing the issuer of the challenge could accept in the first place.

You charged his UNIT in the rear. Your character doesnt issue chalenge. His champ does. You have to accept. Since you accept, first your model moves in BtB contact with the issuer of the chalenge and is teleported in the front.

Its cheezy but its RAW.

This goes back to "make way" a champion has to make way to gain base to base contact, it's not the other way around. The unit in the rear does not move, the champion moves through his unit according to the "make way" provision in the book...

This is not a hard concept to grasp. A champion is treated as a character in all respects except he does not leave the unit...

Thus in order to gain base to base contact, the champion must "make way" through the unit to get to the fighting rank, thus being able to issue/accept challenges.

Like Phierlihy said, pick up your models and find someone who knows the rules to play if someone is trying to do this to you.

There is something that is being missed here, I will look into it more when I am not at work. This idea that a unit that charged the flank/rear of a unit has to teleport to the front in order to accept a challenge is assinine.

[Phierlihy]

Champions may issue and accept challenges just like a character model but unless someone can quote a rule I've overlooked (which usually isn't that hard... ) I know of no rule which allows a Champion model to use the "make way" rule.

And for those who missed it, I'll repeat - only models in base-to-base contact with the enemy can issue or accept challenges.

[Diablo]

And for those who missed it, I'll repeat - only models in base-to-base contact with the enemy can issue or accept challenges.

Yeah, and thats why theres a whole paragraph about how to get those two in BtB... Theres the rule quoted by yourself about accepting challenge if UNIT is in BtB contact. Meaning in multiple combat you can not issue a challenge if theres a character in unit that is in multiple combat but the unit is not in BtB with issuer. Period. So please stop making your own rules just to avoid cheese...

[Thenick18]

Diablo, you are not correct though, for the challenge to be able to be issued in the first place, the models issuing and accepting the challenge must be in btb contact. If they are not, the challenge cannot take place. You don't just move entire units in order to fight a challenge...

The only way for models to gain btb contact is through "make way" which champions cannot do. The units are stuck in the position that they are in and the challenge cannot commence.

You do not move entire units in order to make btb contact, that is not described in the BRB anywhere. If it's not in the BRB it's not a rule/game mechanic etc. There is nothing in the BRB supporting your claim. Prove that this is in fact a rule, otherwise find someone who will play Warhammer Jr. with you because what you describe is not Warhammer.

You need to prove this beyond a doubt for anyone to consider this a part of the game, and currently that has not been done.

I am not going to post anymore on this because its just non-sense. I hope you will be able to find opponents when you start implementing this logic.

[Phierlihy]

Diablo, if I haven't pointed out to you what seems obvious to me yet, I never will. But I honestly do not believe you can teleport units from the rear arc of one unit to the front arc for the sake of a challenge. I'm quite confident I'm correct so I don't need to convince you here. For me this topic is now just beating a dead horse. Good luck in your gaming and I hope you find a group of people who share your view of the rules. Peace out.

[Diablo]

Both of you, please open your BRB, go to page 102, paragraph "Accepting challenge":
If your opponent has issued a challenge, you can now accept it with one of your characters or champions whose UNIT is in base contact with the UNIT containing the issuer of the chalenge. NOTE THAT CHARACTER DOESNT HAVE TO BE IN BASE CONTACT WITH AN ENEMY TO ACCEPT OR ISSUE A CHALENGE, JUST PART OF THE UNIT.
Savy?

thenick18: I dont like this ruling, i think its stupid as much as you, but i simple tried to point out its RAW. And i wanted to stop phierlihy from making his own rules. Nothing else.

[Thenick18]

Sigh you made me do it... Under "Fighting a Challenge" read the last paragraph on pg 102, it says "if a character accepts the challenge move him into base contact"... we know the rest. Then read a little below that "IF FOR WHATEVER REASON THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE, ASSUME THE TWO MODELS ARE IN BASE CONTACT"

This is exactly what you are talking about, a unit charges in the flank, IT IS NOT possible for the characters/champions to be in BtB contact. WE ASSUME they are. You DO NOT teleport/rearrange units so characters can get into BtB contact. It states in the BRB WE ASSUME they ARE in contact.

Hope this sheds some light for you...


In fact this is a good way to add your character/champion to a combat that he would not have been able to take part in to begin with.

[Diablo]

And what is the reason you are refering to, why you can not "teleport" him so he will be in BtB? Assuming theres no building or another obstacle in front of units champion.
Really man, its RAW. Twist the rules however you like, it will sadly still be working...

P.s: sorry if i wrote it badly. I didnt mean "...as much stupid as you" but "...as much stupid as you do". I dont want to insult you for any reason. I actually play quite friendly and i only add post so theres no spreading of rumors that "BrB says so" when BrB says no such thing.

[Thenick18]

And what is the reason you are refering to, why you can not "teleport" him so he will be in BtB? Assuming theres no building or another obstacle in front of units champion.
Really man, its RAW. Twist the rules however you like, it will sadly still be working...

Again, Diablo, there is no hard evidence that you are supposed to re-arrange your unit so that you can get your champion/character in contact for a challenge. The reason you cannot "teleport" and rearrange your units is because the BRB does not describe this anywhere. You seem to be such an advocate for RAW, but you yourself are not reading the rule as they are written and adding in this "teleportation" provision to get models into base to base contact. And no where is it written in the rulebook that you move/teleport/rearrange the combat so that challenge participants are in base to base contact - again where is this written - how is THIS RAW when it isn't in the BRB?

Prove it, where in the rulebook does it tell you to do this?

RAW are just as described above, the BRB gives a provision that if it is not possible for the (2) models to get in base to base contact, we just assume they are. Whatever the reason may be, terrain, the unit charged a part of the unit that won't allow for the champion and character to make contact i.e. flank and rear charges...whatever the reason may be. We assume they are in contact - for the sake of the challenge to take place. We DO NOT move units.

If you agree that this is a non-sense way to play the game, why do you argue so hard against evidence that is right in front of you that explains what to do. Now, the correct thing to do is you take this evidence back to whomever pulled this trick on you and point it out and say hey look, it is possible to fight a challenge without the (2) models being in base to base contact. And here it is on page 102 under Fighting a Challenge... they will thank you for it for making them a better and more knowledgeable gamer.

There is no shame in knowing the correct way to play the game and the correct rules, in fact opponents will like you more for it. It makes you a better player for it. At some point in your posts, you are just repeatng what has already been disproven. This is not a pride contest. There have been many instances when I thought a rule is one way or another and turns out I was wrong. Put the pride aside and just read.

We're all gamers that are working towards making each other a better gamer.

[Diablo]

The reason you cannot "teleport" and rearrange your units

I guess this is the point of our argument. We are assuming lone character (on dragon but still lone) for the purpose of rules a model. Lone character model charges in the rear of a unit. Not issuing a chalenge so for some reason the unit champion does.
The characters have to accept (why is covered in the rules perfectly). So now he should move in BtB contact with the champion issuing a chalenge. Since theres no restriction that he cant be moved into another arc of "defending" unit he should be moved (you can say teleported) to be in BtB contact. No rules saying otherwise. No moving of units. Right?

As for your questions. Yeah i totally agree this ruling is almost insane. But i accepted some time ago that sometimes GW makes insane, unlogical rules. And im "defending" it so theres no confused guys on tournaments arguing that "its nonsense, i read it on forum that it cant be done" and being overruled by judge and angry in the end. This way you know its RAW, eventhough its not nice. And since there are guys on the tournament that will do anything to win.......

The other thing is that i want you to know rules better and be better player, right? LOL

EDIT: silly us, we are arguing about rules in BrB when this is clearly FAQed:
Q: After accepting a challenge must the challenged model always
move into base contact with the enemy model that issued the
challenge? (p102)
A: If the challenged model is on his own then he must move
into base contact. If the challenged model is in a unit he must
move as long as it does not require leaving his unit. Where it is
not possible for base contact to be made then leave the models
where they are and simply assume that the two models are in
base contact.

LAWYERED!
just kidding