Which Lore vs High Elves?

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Clockwork
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Which Lore vs High Elves?

Post by Clockwork »

I've just started a new Dark Elf Army (freshly painted AoW Hag Queen sat on my desk, batallion in the mail) and due to fight High Elves in my first 1,500 point game. Could use some suggestions on which magic lore to take as I'm fielding a Supreme Sorceress as my general.

Initially I went for Shadow, naturally. But I pretty much helped buily my opponent's High Elf army over the last year, so we both know Shadow inside out and I'd like to go for something new to throw him off-balance. I'm also the one who talked him into taking large units of archers for his core tax, which is why I've been veering towards Dark Magic for Chillwind. Word of Pain is also an excellent debuff that will mitigate his ASF (or is it the other way round?), and the low strength damage dealers won't matter so much against T2.

I'm open to suggestions, though, as I'm new to the army and migrated from Lizardmen - where Life was a no-brainer. Would the damage output of Fire or Death be superior to the utility in Dark, do you think?
Last edited by Clockwork on Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Hansleonard »

In 1500 Points i would usually run with two lvl 2's instead of a lvl 4 as she just becomes a little too expensive.

Anyway. Shadow is awesome against HE. A large archer block with BS 1..? Toughness 1 Guys? Swordmasters/White lions with strength 3 ?

A lot of possibilities. Lore of dark on a lvl 4 is.. I don't know.. i feel like it fits more with a lover level mage due to the low casting values. but if you drop Shadow i would go with either Fire or Death. There are A LOT of really good fire spells. Flame cage, Sword of Ruin, Fireball. And Death is also pretty good, although it gets overlooked a lot IMO.
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Rabidnid
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Post by Rabidnid »

Greatest advantage of fire is its long range. It does have some nice spells, particularly rhuin which means that your RXB will be wounding on 3+ and the fire cloak which is killing the ASF tossers in the magic phase before they get to strike.


Dark just shines though for chillwind, bladewind and word of pain. My default is always the familiar and Dark. It has spells that ignore armour, spells that stop shooing or reduce WS/BS to 1, spells that pick out characters and spells that slaughter horde units, and you can cast them all on a level 4 in most magic phases without needing PoD or the sac dagger.


Very short ranged - hence the familiar - and very cheap to cast. I would always take dark on a level 2 simply because it has no bad spells.

In 1500 points where she is going to end up the general, I will always take a lvl3/4 just for the ld 9. A lvl 1 scroll caddie with fire or metal and the signature spell would be my backup if I needed one.
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Kaleth stinson
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Post by Kaleth stinson »

Dark hands down!

Every spell is designed to take out HE.
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Post by Tethlis »

I agree with Dark as well. Virtually every spell in there is highly effective, and some of them are real game changers if they're cast against the right target units.
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Post by Calisson »

Beware that HE have very effective ways to reduce your magic efficiency: they can steal you PD or make magic more difficult to cast.
If this is the case, just cast one single spell with all available PD and hope for IF.
Anyway, against HE, don't rely only on magic, shooting and hydras are good too ;)


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Post by Phierlihy »

At low point games, the big spells by far have the most impact. And up until 8th edtion, Black Horror was THE big spell. Against High Elves, it's still utterly brutal. Take your native lore and you'll do fine!
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Dirty Mac
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Post by Dirty Mac »

In 1500 Points i would usually run with two lvl 2's instead


I am inclined to agree. having 2 lvl 2's allows you to space your casters properly on the board. last game i played a 1500pt game. my 2 lvl 2's vs 1 lvl 4 all my forces were basically too far away for any spells. my magic dominated the game. also with 2 lvl 2's if one guy fails a spell or has a bad miscast you still have a wizard left.

Dark magic is great. Fire magic has a great signature spell. so give a tome of furion to your dark mage. Shadow can be great, but by itself you may find it lacking.
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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork »

Yeah, unfortunately I'm limited by the models that I have available at present - one of the fantastic new plastic sorceresses, and a Death Hag. So only one Level 4 this time around. I'll try to pick up a second somewhere though and run two, though it'll have to be a conversion because a) I hate lead and b) I don't want both sorceresses looking identical. Had some suprising luck with 2 level 2 skinks the other day, so it could be a good plan.

Dark it is then! Will be nice to try it out at least once - can't see much utility for it against my other regular opponent, Warriors of Chaos. The ways of HE magic cheese are well known to me - like I said, I tutored my friend for about a year on the army whilst he was getting into the game. My Lizardmen could match it with a Focus of Rumination Slann, but DE seem to play magic more offensively, rather than relying on any tricksy tricks.

And thanks for the welcome!
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Post by Ataroth »

When you next play your WoC friend, try using the Metal Lore against him. Works quite nicely against the heavily armoured nasties. It's strange how overlooked metal can be as its a pretty fun lore at times. It's pretty situational and certain units will just laugh at it (WE and other armourless units) whereas I think its one of the strongest lores we have against Warriors of Chaos.
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Post by Clockwork »

I've actually had huge success with metal vs WE. Searing doom hits treemen and treekin on a decent roll, the attacks count as flaming (doubling the wounds), and because its magical they don't get their treespirit ward save. Much more effective than fire, tbh, which struggles to beat the high T of these units.
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Post by Dirty Mac »

Well I just played another 2 1500pt games against HE today.
We had time for 2 because i smashed him so hard, that the first game was over by the end of turn 2. 2 lvl 2's fire and dark. i'll post the army list if you are interested.
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Post by Rabidnid »

Clockwork wrote:I've actually had huge success with metal vs WE. Searing doom hits treemen and treekin on a decent roll, the attacks count as flaming (doubling the wounds), and because its magical they don't get their treespirit ward save. Much more effective than fire, tbh, which struggles to beat the high T of these units.


Against Woodies metal is very good, just for the treemen and treekin. I find myself using dark all the time though because it has a couple spells that ignore armour, something that fire lacks.
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Post by Saintofm »

I had some fun with fire (large block of sea guard, Strength 4 attacks, marshmellows S)


Death is definitely a good stand by. Most of the damaging attacks are high strength, the template attack does damage based upon strength, and word of pain is a god send.

If you use shadows, remember that HE have obnoxiously high initiative like you, so get rid of it. Any spell that kills based on an I test replace it for the signature spell. Try and weaken their I as much as possible so the do not get their reroles to hit.
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Post by Fingol23 »

The shadows signiture spell is a god send against High Elves for one very simple reason, cast it on their combat units to drop their initiative and they lose their re-rolls making them much, much less effective in combat.
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Post by Tethlis »

Boosting Miasma is great as well. Weapon Skill reductions can be very decisive in combat, and you can really see the difference between hitting on a 4+ versus hitting on a 3+ when both sides are rolling lots of dice (as Elves tend to do.) Similarly, being hit by Swordmasters on a 3+ re-rollable, and changing that to a 4+ without re-rolls using just one easy-to-cast-spell, is very major.

I myself use a Level 4 with Shadow and a Level 2 with Tome of Furion and Dark Magic in virtually all my games. It's a great blend of direct damage options and hexes, and really lets me cover all my bases against a wide variety of opponents.

Monsters:
-Mindrazor
-Pit of Shades
-Doombolt

Hordes:
-Mindrazor
-Pit of Shades (if their initiative is low)
-Black Horror
-Soul Stealer

Gunlines:
-Miasma
-Word of Pain
-Pit of Shades (versus Warmachines)
-Bladewind (versus Warmachines and mage bunkers)
-Chillwind

Heavy combat armies:
-Miasma
-Word of Pain
-Enfeebling Foe
-Withering
-Mindrazor

Multiple spells to help handle multiple threats, creating lots of redundancy. Versus High Elves, both lores have lots of application.
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Post by Red... »

Shadow is awesome against HE.


Two of the spells are unusuable as they rely on your opponent having low initiative. A canny opponent knows which spells they need to dispel and which they can safely ignore. That makes it hard to get things right.

Personally I like metal versus high elves. Final Transmutation is ideal for dealing with Phoenix Guard or Dragon Princes, while Plague of Rust is very handy for weakening any of their saves. Glittering Robe is a god send versus massed shooting. Enchanted blades of Aiban is very nice for our crossbowmen and close combat troops and transmutation of lead is handy for weakening his shooting and close combat too. Searing doom is decent - good for removing silver helms and other heavily or medium armoured troops (no good versus dragon princes though!). Ghenna's Golden Hounds is poor, but one bad spell out of 7 is not bad at all.
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