new vc thoughts and how to counter

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Omnichron
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Post by Omnichron »

Dangerous Beans wrote:Has anyone else had any games against the new Vamps yet? Fancy reporting your findings in the battle reports forum? I find you can learn more by writing things up in some detail on there - even more so if you can provide photos/diagrams :D


Well, I could post some of my pre-tournament battles I had against a friend, as well as my discoveries of the tournament itself (which was a doubles 800 pts tournament).

What I can say now though... Alliance between a Dark Elf army with lots of shooting and fire-sorceress combined with heavy etherals and zombies (With 3rd lvl necromancer) is REALLY hard to deal with. The combination means that the etherals force you to play passivly as most of your army can't do much against them at so few points, and the shooting of the dark elves, means they will wither away any opponents quickly (Especially with the lifetaker and fireball).

If I've met that Vampire Counts army only, it'd not be such a problem though... Sorceress with lifetaker and dark magic, crushes etherals :D
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Post by Dante valentine »

Based on this conversation so far is there any really nasty combinations that us Druchii should be concerned about when facing VC.

I have a game planned this weekend and after only a (very) brief read, i am not sure what to expect and naturally, how to counter!

Hexwraiths seem to be the main thing to careful of: not because they are difficult to deal with but because they can do lots of damage if you take your eye off the ball!

Naturally i am planning to deal with these with Lifetaker, fireballs (ftw!) and a Hero on a Dark Steed armed with the Whip of Agony and Dragonhelm! (I couldn't afford the upgrade to a peg, but i thought a Dark Steed is fast enough realistically).

So, apart from that, is there anything else that we should look out for. Naturally i don't want to tailor an army just for VC's (i'm not even sure i will face them, the Dark Steed Hero is always handy, i only have popped a Dragonhelm on him recently - i use him to pick off units of light cavalry, wolf chariots. flyers etc).

Regards

Dante

P.S: i have read the rest of the post and while i'm not overly worried about the new VC's book, i just dont want to be left thinking WTF as an opponent hits me with a new, super combo that i never saw coming - thats what i'm looking for advice against.
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Post by Druchiinoob »

Dante Valentine wrote:Based on this conversation so far is there any really nasty combinations that us Druchii should be concerned about when facing VC.

I have a game planned this weekend and after only a (very) brief read, i am not sure what to expect and naturally, how to counter!

Hexwraiths seem to be the main thing to careful of: not because they are difficult to deal with but because they can do lots of damage if you take your eye off the ball!

Naturally i am planning to deal with these with Lifetaker, fireballs (ftw!) and a Hero on a Dark Steed armed with the Whip of Agony and Dragonhelm! (I couldn't afford the upgrade to a peg, but i thought a Dark Steed is fast enough realistically).

So, apart from that, is there anything else that we should look out for. Naturally i don't want to tailor an army just for VC's (i'm not even sure i will face them, the Dark Steed Hero is always handy, i only have popped a Dragonhelm on him recently - i use him to pick off units of light cavalry, wolf chariots. flyers etc).

Regards

Dante

P.S: i have read the rest of the post and while i'm not overly worried about the new VC's book, i just dont want to be left thinking WTF as an opponent hits me with a new, super combo that i never saw coming - thats what i'm looking for advice against.




The only thing that comes to mind at the moment is they can make nasty vampire lords with lots of attacks ,ASF and redfury so any wounds equal more attacks. Although it makes them pretty weak defensivly . shadow blade may finally have a use but they will strike at the same time but if you pop the potion of strength you should be only to cause 3 wounds
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Post by Omnichron »

Dante Valentine wrote:Hexwraiths seem to be the main thing to careful of: not because they are difficult to deal with but because they can do lots of damage if you take your eye off the ball!


I kept my eyes open, saw them and killed all 5 with bladewind in my last tournament (last weekend). I actually think that the best lore against mass etheral, is the dark magic. I think we'll see small units of spirit hosts, wraiths and hexwraiths which wiill be hard to take down at once, so being able to lash out 2-4 spells a round AND having the lifetaker will be important.

You're probably f****d if you go for shadow lore and have nothing else of magic attacks and meet a VC army with etherals btw...

Also, I actually fear the spirit hosts more than the hexwraiths. Not because of the damage output, but they are really cheap, and could hold your hydra, cavalry and even ranked units for the entire game. Taking those down isn't a big loss for the VC, and means we have to focus our magic or characters on them instead of the more juicy stuff.
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Post by Druchiinoob »

there a new vamp build over on thier forum for magic heavy.

lv 4 vamp lord with MOTDA (RE ROLL 1 winds of magic dice) dark accolyte (extra d3 to cast invocation of nehek) a magic item for a ward save standing next a mortis engine. When this guy goes to cast invocation the minium he starts with is +7 to cast due to bonuses. How we gonna stop that
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Post by Dangerous Beans »

druchiinoob wrote:There a new vamp build over on thier forum for magic heavy.

lv 4 vamp lord with MOTDA (RE ROLL 1 winds of magic dice) dark accolyte (extra d3 to cast invocation of nehek) a magic item for a ward save standing next a mortis engine. When this guy goes to cast invocation the minium he starts with is +7 to cast due to bonuses. How we gonna stop that
Repeated Death Magic snipes on him?
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Post by Sulla »

druchiinoob wrote:there a new vamp build over on thier forum for magic heavy.

lv 4 vamp lord with MOTDA (RE ROLL 1 winds of magic dice) dark accolyte (extra d3 to cast invocation of nehek) a magic item for a ward save standing next a mortis engine. When this guy goes to cast invocation the minium he starts with is +7 to cast due to bonuses. How we gonna stop that
It's +d3 on successful casts of invocation...which he can only cast once...and can't boost units other than zombies over their starting size. It's a fairly huge amount of points for a fairly limited boost, and he misses out on all the useful combat buffs.

Take purple sun or black horror and he can't hope to heal casualties quicker than you cause them...
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Post by Druchiinoob »

Thats true I guess but I dont like using purple sun thinks its abit cheesy.Anyway how can you guaruntee it will go off
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Post by Lord tsunami »

you cant guarantee anything in a game of dice... 5 goblins charged by a hydra could potentially kill it while suffering no losses in return. it is not very likely, but you cant guarantee it wont happen.

the easiest way to "guarantee" that your imba death spells go off is to use many dice and hope for IF. you thereby tweak the odds in your favour, but talking about guarantees is a bit iffy ;)
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Post by Dante valentine »

Just a quick update.

Played the game today and probably achieved one of my most impressive victories ever.

I think the key to victory against VC's is solid strategy and the combination of units - although, to be fair, this is the key to victory against everything!

Nothing really scared me: the two terrorghiests died, one to a Hydra, one to a magic + shooting phase from a unit of 22RXB's and a Level 2 with Lifetaker & Lore of Death.

My chariots proved to be pretty awesome (same as ever) while my spearmen performed well against everything!

By the end of turn three i had only lost 3 x units of 6 harpies while all my opponent had left was four Hexwraiths (who had been reduced to one man and spent the rest of the game hiding behind a hill,) his General (who had wisely decided to leave the big unit of spearmen before i hit it with everything i had!) and a corpse cart.

I think one of the biggest contributors to my victory was a combination of generally poor casting on my opponents behalf (he got plenty of powerdice though!) and careful dispelling of key spells. Letting him rez one Knight for example i think is a waste of 2 out of 7 power-dice.

Anyway, think that the VC list is very good but not broken, which is very nice to see. Am looking forward to fighting a few more games against different army list variations.

Kind Regards

D

Edit: Am also loving watching Witch Elves with KB mow through Black Knights!
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Post by Druchiinoob »

thanks for the post. Glad they are not Op. out of interest how many chariots do you run and what did you charge them with? What other units did well? What sort of lord did he take?
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Post by Saintofm »

The terrorghist seems like an interesting thing and one I'd rather not fight.

From what I've seen on GW's website, most of the Initiative will still be poor, so one has to wonder how the VC will counter this. So we should get the first hit against most of them. That said, I suspect they may try and summon more undead and start healing the deader troops, so even though we'll have the first strike, that doesn't mean we can keep them down for the count.
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Post by Setomidor »

Actually, VC can easily get ASF on most on their troops since the Corpse Cart now grants ASF to all units within 6" if the cart is affected by any vampiric augment spell (and Invocation is an augment). The problem for VC players is that ASF has a quite small effect on them, due to their low I they will rarely get to re-roll hits anyway, and having the lowly troops strike first will not make a huge difference.

Playing the new VC today!
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Post by Druchiinoob »

cool. lets us know how you get on
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Post by Omnichron »

So, I've been too lazy to make a proper battlereport of the 800 doubles tournament where I got a second place with my friend. However, I can say that in the final game, we met the winning team. It was a mix of VC with dark elves, and had the following

Vampire Counts
Necromancer, lvl 3

20 Zombies
20 Zombies
20 Zombies
Spirit Hosts
Spirit Hosts
5 Hexwraiths
3 Wraiths

Dark Elves
Sorceress lvl 2 (with lifetaker)

10 crossbowmen
10 crossbowmen
5 shades
6 shades
7 shades
war hydra

Our army was my chaos friend who had a unit of 14 chaos warriors with shield and a nurgle sorcerer in it (Who had the feedback scroll), 14 warriors of khorne with halberd and 5 warhounds. I buildt my army as support to him, with sorceress lvl 2 with furion and lifetaker, 19 crossbowmen, war hydra, 5 cold one knights and chariot.

As you see from the VC's army it was alot of etherals. I used the dark magic while they had the lore of fire and the vampire lore. The game was basicly a standoff as neither mine nor my friends troops could move forward against the etherals. Meanwhile, the dark elf player and both their mages blasted us with magic. My friend used the feedback scroll against the wrong caster more or less, as we wanted to try and take down the necromancer. Of course, he had not only three wounds, but would get his wounds back... we should've tried to take down the sorceress instead. My crossbowmen took a real beating and unfortunately I failed a leadershiptest and fled during the game, so the necessary magic damage was gone for two very essential rounds. I did however see that my original thoughts of the dark magic as our best chances against etherals to be true. Even though I didn't have range in the start, and only took out a unit of shades then, I managed to take down all the hexwraiths in one round with the bladewind. Unfortunately, the sorceress only got to do half of the job she should have, and I also rolled badly when I used the magic missiles, only wounding the wraiths and hosts a bit... In the end, due to some mistakes, I lost all my forces on the last rounds, just because they had all the firepower and focused me down, while my friend just lost his hounds and his sorcerer. I should have managed to keep my sorceress alive if I was a bit more awake in the end of the match.

As a final thoughts of that match, the combination they used, kinda f*****d up all armies in the tournament. We lost with about 600 VP, which was 1/3 of what the two other matchups lost with, so we actually came out quite well against the list. It shows though, how the etherals can put you on your back so easily. Not only did we lack the magic evenly distributed on our forces to be able to deal with the etherals, but we had no units with ranks to take down those spirit hosts either. They are real cheap, and blocked our armies completely.


Also, I had another match yesterday. It was against an army with 2 units of 9 black knights and a vampire in each, a necromancer at the back, 3 spirit hosts, 2 units of 14 ghouls, 2 units of 30 (I think it was) zombies and a corpse cart... og, and 2 units of 3 vargheists.

I fielded my own unit of 1800 pts which had a lvl 4 shadow sorceress, Cauldron of blood, pegasus master with pendant and soulrender, 19 crossbowmen with shields, 21 corsairs with frenzy, 21 witches with murder, 6 shades, 1 war hydra, 5 harpies.

I really got the better of the magic against him, managing to get in the miasma on the black knights, lowering his initative to 1, and then rolling a hit on the pit of shades with big template. Together with the crossbowmen, I managed to kill the unit off and leaving the vampire with 1 wound left. I flew my master straight for the corpse cart, and took it out in two rounds of combat, even though two of the spirit hosts decided it was a nice idea to attack me. The third moved up to try and block the hydra from getting into the fray, while hist knights moved up on one flank and the single vampire moved in to try and take down my master. The zombies and ghouls moved up in the middle.

The vargheists moved up on my flanks, and I started feeling the pressure on the crossbowmen. However, one volley on them in the second roll, felled one of the units, and the shades got off a volley before they were charged and killed... in return, my hydra ran into them and killed the rest of the vargheists off.

I moved my corsairs up to block off the unit, giving my corsairs the killing blow while my witch elves started grinding the first unit of zombies. The ghouls quickly joined the fray, but even though they are supposed to be somewhat evenly matched, my witches killed so many zombies and ghouls that they withered down real quick, especially when I got the mindrazor off my next round. My corsairs got charged by the knights, and I got alot of killing blows (Although not against the vampire). I took down all but 3 of them and the vampire, then the remaining knights and vampire managed to hit and wound with almost all the dices, making it an even match. The next round, I killed the rest of the unit off, while the witches moved on to the next zombie unit with the necromancer in...

Well, lets just say that the rest of the match was a complete mop-up. I got the magic I needed in, when I needed it the most, and I really killed off the army quick with just a few losses of witch elves and corsairs. He was rather unlucky with his magic and didn't get to raise anything the whole game, so I'd say it was a matchup where I kinda had the luck on my side... I do fear those knights with vampires though, which is why I focused so much on taking them down. The master with soulrender did most of the job, and I think my opponent did some big mistakes when he actually moved his etherals into close combat with him... he could've stopped my witch elves for at least one round, probably two, which would have kept most of his army alive.

I like the new VC, although some of the players I've played against and seen, need a bit more time to learn the units and the synergies of the army I think :)
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Post by Tyrannus deathbringer »

saintofm wrote: that doesn't mean we can keep them down for the count.


Pun :D
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Post by Druchiinoob »

Any one taken the new VC on yet. I need ideas for taking out the Mortis engine. My opoents list revolves around this thing. If I can take it down quick he will be lost and confused
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Post by Dirty Mac »

how does it work? is it a war machine? can you initiative test it?
Can you rain arrows down on it? Flaming sword of rhuin helps shooting.

Can you fireball it? can you throw a unit of CoK's at it? Can you slam Chuck Norris in to it? (Serious Question), will a unit of Black guard be needed?
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Post by Druchiinoob »

dont kn ow the complete rules but it is a large target chariot s5 t5 w5 regen +4 . Each turn kicks out 2d6 AOE (regen for friends) (strenth what ever the turn number is damage to enemies) Can give 2+ to cast vampire lore spells for wizards within 12"
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Post by Dirty Mac »

Sounds like a target for the withering, and fireball combos or Witch elves with the flaming banner. does it have a weapon skill?
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Post by Druchiinoob »

I think ws3 or 4 cpuld be wrong though. Thing is its gonna be completly surrounded so may not be able to charge it. Thing is vamps players can now take a shed load more troops . Im expecting 3-4 units of 30 zombies that keep growing.
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Post by Setomidor »

It's a really potent thing actually, it also packs a Banshee Vail and 2D6 + 4 attacks at S3 WS3. It's quite weak againt both Pit of Shades and Purple Sun with I3, and it can also be taken down by LD snipe spells as it only got a LD value of 5.
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Post by Lokil »

Pit of shades should work it has initiative 3. Also purple sun and the deathmagic base spell should take it down rather quick!

EDIT just like Setomidor says :)
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Dalamar
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Post by Dalamar »

I played against VC just recently and I gotta say they toned down their magic A LOT.

My opponent didn't use any of the new units but from what I saw...

You can't spam raise units anymore. Only d6 per cast (so no more boosted invocation for multiple d6 of models, but d6 + caster level once per wizard). Although it does affect all units within 6/12/18 inches depending on cast level (which is also 6/12/18 ).

The biggest change - Vanhels doesn't allow for charges anymore! Although the boosted version moves ALL vampire units within 12" so be wary of that spell still.
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Post by Dante valentine »

Played a second game against them and came up with another very comfortable victory.

Like Dalamar said, Vanhel's can be used to catch you off guard but i found that careful deployment can counter most of that due to the fact the Vamp's are relying on combat to win.

Again i found that if you do your utmost to shut down their magic phase they really become a rather poor army, with your combat troops able to best theirs on most occasions (there are exceptions).

D
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