The rule book seems pretty clear about this; p.37 (bound spells) "note that bound spells never benefit from any casting modifiers which the caster may have", but I just thought I would check with my fellow dark ones; does the sac dagger count as a "casting modifier"?
Would it be possible to cast the bound spell from the ruby ring and then stab?
Ruby ring & sac dagger
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
i dont think the sac dagger is a casting modifier, simply an extra dice you can throw. This is one of those things that should be faq'd but hasnt been, so people will likely argue it all day.
If all else fails, throw Hydras at it. When the dust clears, they'l be curled up snoozing peacefully on a mountain of corpses.
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Dyvim tvar
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Chaffmaster
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Chaffmaster
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wording was not key here i dont have my armies book i just knew it couldnt be, common sense decrees it otherwise would the sorc then take a miscast for technically casting it. It only says model so that you use line of sight etc for no other purpose of course the ring can benefit from kindle flame though as a bonus. If it could get sac dagger dice would you also addd +4 for wizard level it is obvious the spell is in the item so she isnt really casting it so cant augment it.
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Dante valentine
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I asked this question a while ago and while there was no defined FAQ answer the common consensus came down to a yes, you can.
@ chaffmaster - "common sense" doesn't really apply to Warhammer in general. Wording is in fact ALWAYS the key to what you can and can't do in a game.
In regards to the Sac Dagger, the wording states:
Once per spell casting attempt (which the ruby ring is), after the casting dice have been rolled, the Sorceress may remove.....The Sorceress gains a power dice that must be rolled and added to the casting total.
As Army books always take precedent over the WFRB, i would say that the Sac Dagger can be used to boost bound spells.
Please note that this is my interpretation of the rules and is not legally binding! It really could do with FAQ'ing so we have a clear answer.
The key really is "casting modifiers" - which extra/free power dice do not fall under.
Kind Regards
Dante
P.S. The "free" power dice that a Slaan mage priest can get would in my opinion also be allowed if he had an item that had a bound spell.
@ chaffmaster - "common sense" doesn't really apply to Warhammer in general. Wording is in fact ALWAYS the key to what you can and can't do in a game.
In regards to the Sac Dagger, the wording states:
Once per spell casting attempt (which the ruby ring is), after the casting dice have been rolled, the Sorceress may remove.....The Sorceress gains a power dice that must be rolled and added to the casting total.
As Army books always take precedent over the WFRB, i would say that the Sac Dagger can be used to boost bound spells.
Please note that this is my interpretation of the rules and is not legally binding! It really could do with FAQ'ing so we have a clear answer.
The key really is "casting modifiers" - which extra/free power dice do not fall under.
Kind Regards
Dante
P.S. The "free" power dice that a Slaan mage priest can get would in my opinion also be allowed if he had an item that had a bound spell.
In the House of Valentine, Every Night Is Death Night!
@Dante.
I agree with you on the Sacrificial Dagger and the Ruby Ring.
The text clearly states 'once per spell casting attempt' it says nothing if that should be a spell cast from memory or an item.
However i;'m not convinced about the free spell slann get from Focused Rumination. (one of my openents left the book here, and so i can quote)
"When the Slann casts a spell, a 'free' dice is added to the attempt...."
In this cast I would read that it is only on a spell cast by the slann.,..not on an item he uses.
Having said that if one of my opponents would use the free powerdice on an item as well...i would let him....it is by no means clear, and can be inturpreted in both ways.
I agree with you on the Sacrificial Dagger and the Ruby Ring.
The text clearly states 'once per spell casting attempt' it says nothing if that should be a spell cast from memory or an item.
However i;'m not convinced about the free spell slann get from Focused Rumination. (one of my openents left the book here, and so i can quote)
"When the Slann casts a spell, a 'free' dice is added to the attempt...."
In this cast I would read that it is only on a spell cast by the slann.,..not on an item he uses.
Having said that if one of my opponents would use the free powerdice on an item as well...i would let him....it is by no means clear, and can be inturpreted in both ways.
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Dante valentine
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@ Cold73 - Hmm, the wording is very open on that one!
By using an item, the Slann is, technically, casting the spell! However, i can see the argument that the item is being used and not the Slann itself.
My fundamental argument comes down to the simple idea that anyone using a bound spell has to use powerdice and so a source that add's more powerdice is valid for that casting. If the item provided its own powerdice or did not need to roll (like under 7th edition) i would say that items like Sac Dagger or the Slann spawning rule would not be allowed.
From a fluff point of view, an individuals mastery of magic makes no difference to a spell that is contained within a ring/book etc. However, it still requires "fuel" from the winds of magic and these sources allow an individual to tap into the winds of magic more effectively (or brutally in the case of the Dagger), thus allowing a higher proportion of that power to be funneled into the magic item and spell.
I'm pretty confident that RAW, while they may be dodgy/unfair/biased/poorly written, allows the dagger to be used on bound spells.
I'm also very aware that many tournaments don't allow this but this does not necessarily mean its right! (or wrong - merely their interpretation).
Kind Regards
Dante
By using an item, the Slann is, technically, casting the spell! However, i can see the argument that the item is being used and not the Slann itself.
My fundamental argument comes down to the simple idea that anyone using a bound spell has to use powerdice and so a source that add's more powerdice is valid for that casting. If the item provided its own powerdice or did not need to roll (like under 7th edition) i would say that items like Sac Dagger or the Slann spawning rule would not be allowed.
From a fluff point of view, an individuals mastery of magic makes no difference to a spell that is contained within a ring/book etc. However, it still requires "fuel" from the winds of magic and these sources allow an individual to tap into the winds of magic more effectively (or brutally in the case of the Dagger), thus allowing a higher proportion of that power to be funneled into the magic item and spell.
I'm pretty confident that RAW, while they may be dodgy/unfair/biased/poorly written, allows the dagger to be used on bound spells.
I'm also very aware that many tournaments don't allow this but this does not necessarily mean its right! (or wrong - merely their interpretation).
Kind Regards
Dante
In the House of Valentine, Every Night Is Death Night!
I'm not trying to pick a fight here as I respect everyone's opinion, but I am a little suprised to see that most people are taking a stance that is pretty clearly wrong accoding to the BRB. "Bound spells cannot benefit from...magic items" is a direct quote from page 37.
I know that when the BRB disagrees from the army book, the army book takes precidence; but I don' think they disagree here. The army book simply doesn't choose to clarify something that is already clear in the BRB.
It would be similar to saying "dark elf mages don't miscast on double 6's" because the army book doesn't expressly state they do. Things made clear in the BRB just sometimes aren't discussed in army books.
I do agree, this could use a good FAQ.
I know that when the BRB disagrees from the army book, the army book takes precidence; but I don' think they disagree here. The army book simply doesn't choose to clarify something that is already clear in the BRB.
It would be similar to saying "dark elf mages don't miscast on double 6's" because the army book doesn't expressly state they do. Things made clear in the BRB just sometimes aren't discussed in army books.
I do agree, this could use a good FAQ.
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Dante valentine
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@ Yeasir - the actual line is "Note that Bound spells may not benefit from any casting modifiers the user might have (for the wizard level, magic items and so forth).
The biggest question remains if the Sac Dagger is a "casting modifier".
If it is, then it wouldn't be allowed - this i completely agree on.
However, as it is not clear, and items that use the words "casting modifier" tend to give a + (number) to the wizard in question, i would say the Sac Dagger is NOT a casting modifier.
Rules have to be taken in the context they are written, not interpreted. While this is a system that is less than perfect, it is the only way to ensure some degree of clarity across the board.
Kind Regards
Dante
The biggest question remains if the Sac Dagger is a "casting modifier".
If it is, then it wouldn't be allowed - this i completely agree on.
However, as it is not clear, and items that use the words "casting modifier" tend to give a + (number) to the wizard in question, i would say the Sac Dagger is NOT a casting modifier.
Rules have to be taken in the context they are written, not interpreted. While this is a system that is less than perfect, it is the only way to ensure some degree of clarity across the board.
Kind Regards
Dante
In the House of Valentine, Every Night Is Death Night!
@ Dante- You make a good point. I quess I was taking the BRB quote to mean "all magic items that effect casting are casting modifiers" but you very well could read it as "all magic items that are casting modifiers..." implying that some are not.
I can see both sides better now, so thanks. I sure would like to see and FAQ, though.
I can see both sides better now, so thanks. I sure would like to see and FAQ, though.
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Dyvim tvar
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Page 5 of the Main Rulebook FAQ:
Q: Do bonus power dice, which are added to those taken from the
power pool when a Wizard casts a spell, count when working out if a
spell fails due to the Not Enough Power rule? (p32)
A: Yes, regardless of when these dice are added. The exception
to this rule is that it does not include any dice that are secially
stated as not being power dice (such as Night Goblin’s Magic
Mushroom dice).
This FAQ, which applies primarily to to Sac Dagger and Focused Rumination, states that bonus dice (like the die provided by each of these items/abilities) apply to determine whether a spell fails due to Not Enough Power. In other words, the bonus die can prevent automatic failure.
This answer indicates that the Sac Dagger is not a "modifier" since Not Enough Power ignores modifiers.
Q: Do bonus power dice, which are added to those taken from the
power pool when a Wizard casts a spell, count when working out if a
spell fails due to the Not Enough Power rule? (p32)
A: Yes, regardless of when these dice are added. The exception
to this rule is that it does not include any dice that are secially
stated as not being power dice (such as Night Goblin’s Magic
Mushroom dice).
This FAQ, which applies primarily to to Sac Dagger and Focused Rumination, states that bonus dice (like the die provided by each of these items/abilities) apply to determine whether a spell fails due to Not Enough Power. In other words, the bonus die can prevent automatic failure.
This answer indicates that the Sac Dagger is not a "modifier" since Not Enough Power ignores modifiers.
Truly These are the End Times ...