Harpies, Peg and all that Jazz

[Takis]

Today I had a long argument with a fellow fantasy player about the theoretical usefulness of harpies, dark riders , peg and so on. He generaly believes that the forums about warhammer are rubbish and the only way learn your army is through your codex. Lets see his ideas :

Vs shooting armies :
Armies like Empire will just field something like 4 miniguns, and other mortars and cannons, and will kill everything coming for them, thus harpies and dreadlords on pegs are wasted points. Place more points on big units and pray they will get there.

Also hills will negate any cover effect thus screening range attacks with harpies is rubbish.
Cannons don't use balistic skills thus doesn't matter if you screen or not, thus wasted points.

Vs Chaos :
Redirecting a melee army can hardly work , if used wrong you will get the overun in da face, only executioners , black guards and hydra can help you have a chance against my 35 chosen.

It was suggested in a previous post to use the peg lord to stop the bunker of chosen. At 35 chosen maybe it's a bit too many attacks for our belovet unkillable dreadlord? If someone could make the mathhammer.

Dark riders they die easily from shooting, can't melee, moving up and down and maybe shoot, better take more RxB.

Sacrificial dagger:
Using it is a bad use, more miscast possiblities , should use feedback scroll instead.

[Dyvim tvar]

1) Any Dwarf/Empire player is welcome to shoot at my Pegasus-mounted characters. I often use 2 if I expect shooty opposition. One has Pendant of Khaeleth and the other has Cloak of Hag Graef and Dawnstone. On the second guy, it will take an average of 216 Strength 5 armor-piercing hits to kill him. So yeah -- I really don't care about Hellblasters and Organ Guns.

As a more general matter, harpies and dark riders can get chewed up by shooting. But if I use them correctly and overwhelm one part of the enemy line with multiple units, some will get through.

Your opponent is right that if redirectors are used wrongly they won't help against a fearsome combat unit like 35 Chosen. Luckily I don't use them wrongly.

Finally this guy is a moron if he thinks the Sac Dagger is a poor item. It is like having a massive number of power stones for little cost. Plus if you know what you are doing, you get fewer miscasts when using it. Roll 1 fewer die than normal, and then only kill and roll a bonus die if there are no 6s out there already.

Your friend doesn't know what he is talking about.

[Sacaspearman]

Today I had a long argument with a fellow fantasy player about the theoretical usefulness of harpies, dark riders , peg and so on. He generaly believes that the forums about warhammer are rubbish and the only way learn your army is through your codex.

So, this guy thinks that the experience and ideas of other players can't help you to become a better player? He then spouts off his own half-baked ideas? Hmmm...

Vs shooting armies :
Armies like Empire will just field something like 4 miniguns, and other mortars and cannons, and will kill everything coming for them, thus harpies and dreadlords on pegs are wasted points. Place more points on big units and pray they will get there.

Has this person ever played Empire or even seen the new Empire book being played? Has he ever seen a properly kitted Master or Dreadlord on Pegasus being used against a shooty army? My Master on Pegasus single handedly changed Dwarf shooty army players in my area.

Vs Chaos :
Redirecting a melee army can hardly work , if used wrong you will get the overun in da face, only executioners , black guards and hydra can help you have a chance against my 35 chosen.

Actually, redirecting a melee army with a relatively cheap units like Harpies works wonders.

It was suggested in a previous post to use the peg lord to stop the bunker of chosen. At 35 chosen maybe it's a bit too many attacks for our beloved unkillable dreadlord? If someone could make the mathhammer.

IF I used a Dreadlord on Pegasus in this fashion, I would hit the flank/rear. Sure, they could reform to face him after the initial combat round but then they would open themselves up to being hit by a heavy hitting unit like Executioners.

Sacrificial dagger:
Using it is a bad use, more miscast possiblities , should use feedback scroll instead.

Has this guy even seen how the Sacrificial Dagger works?!? That you can roll to see what you get and then decide AFTER the roll if you want to sacrifice a model for an extra power die?

I'm with Dyvim Tvar. The person you were debating has no clue what he's talking about.

[Dalamar]

Wow, looks like your fellow fantasy player needs to get some experience in Warhammer...

1) Be fast, be mobile, strike in one point and strike hard... or you'll get shot to pieces, no matter how big your units are. Heck, the bigger they are the more likely they are to get hit. Like half a unit of 50 warriors disappearing from two mortars.
True, hills will usually see over screening units, but they are limited and you won't see entire armies deployed on them. It's usually a shooting unit and a war machine or a couple war machines (and you should be jumping with joy if you see a cluster of machines on a hill - remember you can see them too!)

2) You need to practice redirecting... 5 harpies can redirect 35 chosen in such a way, that the 35 chosen will charge them, and have to reform thus wasting an entire turn to move 1", or chase after your harpies (make sure no other targets are in range), only to be facing completely wrong direction, so they'll have to waste another turn just to turn around again.
Peg Dreadlord with PoK, CoC and full armor kit will withstand nearly anything indefinitely. Mine once stopped a block of temple guard with slaan + a unit of saurus + saurus hero all by himself for the entire game. Bad rolls can change everything, but on average this guy is THE immovable object.

3) I agree on the dark riders, Shades perform their role better, but have you tried a unit of 12+ racing down enemy flanks and negating steadfast when they are needed? I haven't but it's a valid tactic. Goblins do it a lot cheaper though.

4) Sacrificial Dagger is one of the best arcane items in the game... ask anyone (except the person you were talking to obviously). If you want to overpower your opponent with magic, Dagger is a must.

[Takis]

First of all I thank all the fellow Druchii that over their advice:

@Sacaspearman: His idea about the forums is coming from the fact that neither he as a WoC player or an other friend that is a HE player have seen something close to help them (they say). The WoC player actually uses a very straight forward method with big bunkers that worked actually only the last week against everyone.

By first glance his tactic seems "solid" as 35 warrior, 35 chosen, 35 marauders and a unit with Archaon (at 2800) isn't something that you can hit easily (except with magic). And they just walk from one edge to the table to the other. I hate it , i want to smash it , just to prove that the game is more than that. Thought it crashes your moral to try to use new things , and him just walk over.

Also, the other local DE player (who has also empire,vc,dwarves), isn't really the redirector guy. So, I can't learn these things first hand, and they stay writen in forums and legends.

As for the Dagger, I used it horribly the first time (I did a mistake in the rules) but i will make him see how good it is.

Now, though I have seen some battle reports, I have seen the legendary undieing peg lord only in a battle report vs VC (old codex). If you have some links I would love it.

As for CoC haven't use it yet, well the mentioned person... I think you know his idea about charriot already XD.

Again thanks for the help.

[Calisson]

He generaly believes that the forums about warhammer are rubbish and the only way learn your army is through your codex.
...
His idea about the forums is coming from the fact that neither he as a WoC player or an other friend that is a HE player have seen something close to help them (they say).

Druchii.net spirit was established when DE book was the underdog and all battles were uphill.
At that time, only through solidarity could DE players improve their tactics to the point of having a reasonable chance to win.
Things have evolved a lot, the present army book suddenly made DE one of the strongest armies in WHFB late 7th edition.
WHFB 8th edition has been outstanding in levelling different armies to a similar level of power.
Somehow, throughout these changes, the helpful spirit has survived.

WoC and HE might not have experienced such a spirit.
Especially HE, they are decadent and will sooner or later fall to their legitimate ruler.

-=-=-

As for your WoC opponent, if he has only 3 blocks and absolutely no redirector, that should be a good case for you to improve your basics:

1. Don't use any shooting, it won't make much difference.

2. Learn how to use redirectors and speed bumpers:

The unkillable dreadlord is straightforward.

But consider also 5 harpies. Position them at 1" in front of a foe, at angle.
The opponent cannot move around, he can only charge. When he does, he has to align on the harpies, towards a direction that YOU have chosen.
He kills 55pts of your troops, and now must reorient towards a direction of HIS wish.
If you did that 6 turns in a row - but usually you need not to do that all turns - he would have moved 6" total and killed 330 pts. What a feat for a unit costing ~1000pts! Of course, you probably don't have that many harpies, but it works with other small units.

DR can do it also, with two units.
Place one at 1" in front of the mega-über-unit you cannot beat. The second DR unit at 1" behind the first one.
Über can only charge. DR1 flees across DR2. Über can only redirect on DR2. DR2 flees across DR1. Über cannot reach DR2 anymore and stops at 1" from DR1.
Next comes your turn.
Rally DR1 and DR2 and position them in the same way.
Take into account that sometimes, DR2 will panic, so you must position them at appropriate angle to lure über away from your other troops.
Of course, you need Ld10 general & BSB to make all Ld test pass.

3. Concentrate all your power on one target at a time.
If you're able to delay 1 or 2 opposing unit, you can concentrate the remaining 70% of your army on the remaining 30% opponent's unit.
Kill it fast. COB and magic buffs and combined charges are the way.

[Setomidor]

From where I stand, it seems that you have the best opportunity ever to learn about battlefield control in Warhammer! You might find his army too much to handle now, but a few games from now I'm sure your opponent will start rethinking and adapting his army to be able to catch up with you, instead of the other way around.

I think most (all?) of us old geezers will claim that his army is actually a really bad army. To see why, read the advice in this thread carefully and consider that that the people posting advice so far got more than 40 years of combined Dark Elf experience to share with you.

Let's start with lowering the ambitions; you don't have to beat him, you just don't have to lose against him. What if you would (theoretically) play an army where all your characters are mounted (preferably on Pegasus), all your core points are spend at Dark Riders and your special section is made up primarily of Shades and a pair of Hydras? Without Magic and Shooting, he would not be able to get a single pts worth of kills from you, as he would never be able to catch you. Meanwhile, you would be able to kill Archaon with Magic and shoot the Marauder unit down with your Shades, you win.

Now, you probably don't have the models to pull off an extreme army like that, but the theory still applies. If you mount your expensive stuff on Pegasi or steeds and evade him, thats 1000+ pts worth of points that he is never going to get. Add a few units of Shades (which he will never catch), a few units of Harpies and Dark Riders which can akt as Redirectors (see advice above), and sufficiently many Crossbows to make crossing the board a pain for him.

Winnin in Warhammer is actually very much about not losing (both points and units). Experienced players are experts at realizing which fights are worth taking and which ones should be avoided. For an extreme example; if you're up against an Empire army made up entierly of Handgunners and Warmachines, just deploy in the corner behind a hill and don't advance. Boring? Yes, but even more boring is walking across the table getting shot to bits. Similarly, if you're up against a hardcore Chaos army, try to stay out of combat.

[Takis]

Thanks both of you for your idea. It seems that's what I need:

@Calisson: WTF? What the ... is this Dark Rider trick?! I MUST USE IT! Only to see his face the first time he sees how I abuse the rules and see his unit getting flancked by something like executioners with asf banner.

Something tells mou you have more secrets like this to hide.

@Setomidor: I am a point that I start my army , and thus it's common to proxy units, thus I could try anything. The "all on wheels" idea seems interesting for a fun game but I would like more details on that.

Is there actually any video on how a peg lord charges or how harpies block ? I have seen the redirect video and it was very useful.

[Mr. anderson]

@Calisson: WTF? What the ... is this Dark Rider trick?! I MUST USE IT! Only to see his face the first time he sees how I abuse the rules and see his unit getting flancked by something like executioners with asf banner.

I wouldn't call it abusing the rules, its just using the rules well. It is only really any use if your opponent brings something that can't be brought down buy conventional tactics, otherwise known as a deathstar. Now in my opinion, anyone who doesn't have enough imagination to play with proper units instead of just using a unit that will roflstomp everything in its path can't complain. How much finesse lies in using a deathstar? you just run it forward at the unit that will give you the most victory points, all you need is the ability to read the numbers on your tape measure.

I think double flee, redirecting and conga lining are all perfectly acceptable tactics against that. You just focus 2000 points of your army on whatever points he hasn't stuck in the deathstar while feeding said deathstar 300 points worth of troops (or none, if your double flee works out).

A note on the double flee - it might be possible to avoid fleeing through your own unit and still have the second unit of dark riders block the way to the first - at least against large units as deathstars are wont to be.

[Dalamar]

Remember, as a Dark Elf you can't let the opponent to fight on his terms. You will have to learn one most important rule for a Dark Elven army:

Always fight on your terms and run from fights you don't have advantage in. Run rings around your opponents and always be where they don't expect you to be, behind or on their sides. Sometimes winning, or losing depends on a single charge, and if it takes you 6 5 turns to set up that charge for turn 6, then so be it. Patience is your friend.

[Sacaspearman]

@Takis

I don't think that I realized that you guys were that new to WHFB. As you get more experience, you will realize that the Chaos guy has what a lot of us would consider to be a bad list. There are many things that a fast army like Dark Elves can do against an army like that to mitigate its effectiveness. Since you've already been given excellent advice from posters already, I won't repeat it.

Usually, newer players unconsciously (or consciously) tailor their armies to fight whatever armies that their small group of players play. As you play more and go to tournaments and increase the numbers of players that you face, you realize that it's best to play 'all comers' lists. That way, you're not hanging in the breeze when you face an army that you didn't design your list to fight.

There are many armies that his Chaos list would hate to face. Skaven comes to mind of course.

[Zenith]

@ Callison , dark rider tactic.

It does looks good., But why would Uber charge DR, if he can simply let his chariot (who is standing next to uber) mob up the dark riders., now Uber can move freely again and, we lost like 170 points on DR.


]

[Calisson]

@ Callison , dark rider tactic.

It does looks good., But why would Uber charge DR, if he can simply let his chariot (who is standing next to uber) mob up the dark riders., now Uber can move freely again and, we lost like 170 points on DR.

That's why people need a balanced army
- some killy massive unit to do the main slaughter
- some diverters / agile troops to mess up other's massive unit positioning
- some hunters (shooters, chariots, monsters...) to kill the diverters before thy mess up our positioning
- some long range snipers (warmachines, magic missiles) to kill those diverters & hunters
- more agile troops to kill the long range snipers
...

Relying upon über-units only, you miss the rest of the food chain... and you starve.

That was the starting point of the threat.
Don't tell Takis' opponent about the usefulness of a chariot... yet.

[Red...]

He generaly believes that the forums about warhammer are rubbish and the only way learn your army is through your codex.

Don't argue with him! Opponents like these are worth their weight in gold. Nothing more enjoyable than an easy crushing victory against someone who is convinced he knows best and can't understand why he has lost...again.

As others have alluded to: even if he is better than you now, your attention to forums and embracing new ideas will help you to grow as a player and get better and better. He will stay still, so that you will pass him soon enough.

[Geist]

[quote="Takis"]Today I had a long argument with a fellow fantasy player about the theoretical usefulness of harpies, dark riders , peg and so on. He generaly believes that the forums about warhammer are rubbish and the only way learn your army is through your codex. Lets see his ideas :
Moron.

Vs shooting armies :
Armies like Empire will just field something like 4 miniguns, and other mortars and cannons, and will kill everything coming for them, thus harpies and dreadlords on pegs are wasted points. Place more points on big units and pray they will get there.
Wrong on many levels. Basic dark elf tatics will answer this better and more than likely less rude than I.

Also hills will negate any cover effect thus screening range attacks with harpies is rubbish.
WTF?
Cannons don't use balistic skills thus doesn't matter if you screen or not, thus wasted points.
Wrong one harpie dead from cannon shot will not cause a panic in a harpie unit of 5 models, and if he waste the shot there hes a fool. Let him reap a fools reward.

Vs Chaos :
Redirecting a melee army can hardly work , if used wrong you will get the overun in da face, only executioners , black guards and hydra can help you have a chance against my 35 chosen.
Black guard will die to chosen because of size. Sure will take about 12 to 20 chosen with them. But will die nonetheless. Far better chance with exes just because you can have a massive unit of them.

It was suggested in a previous post to use the peg lord to stop the bunker of chosen. At 35 chosen maybe it's a bit too many attacks for our belovet unkillable dreadlord? If someone could make the mathhammer.
Peg lord will more than likely break from combat res before hes killed in such a fight. If you take the crown then yes you can hold the unit for all 6 turns. You have a slight chance of either being killed or running with crown over course of 6 turns.

Dark riders they die easily from shooting, can't melee, moving up and down and maybe shoot, better take more RxB.
Dark riders rules wise work just fine. There rules are not what affect them, its the point cost. They are very costly vs similar cost of repeater block. So no in the light of the statement as phrased they work just fine.

Sacrificial dagger:
Using it is a bad use, more miscast possiblities , should use feedback scroll instead.
Feed back scroll is great if you can fit in the points. But has also lost a lil bit of punch thanks to the skaven faq (one of the few armies that for a while could throw more dice at a spell than 6 due to warpstone). But now days most armies can only throw 6 at most and if they know you have said item they will be nursing there dice. You get more bang for your buck on a scroll. Feedback while good is a use it exactly right or waste of 50pts I dont know about you but thats another unit of harpies in my book.

[Dyvim tvar]

Geist -- Please edit your post. We can't tell what is yours and what is from the post you are quoting.

[Chew1e]

DR can do it also, with two units.
Place one at 1" in front of the mega-über-unit you cannot beat. The second DR unit at 1" behind the first one.
Über can only charge. DR1 flees across DR2. Über can only redirect on DR2. DR2 flees across DR1. Über cannot reach DR2 anymore and stops at 1" from DR1.
Next comes your turn.
Rally DR1 and DR2 and position them in the same way.
Take into account that sometimes, DR2 will panic, so you must position them at appropriate angle to lure über away from your other troops.
Of course, you need Ld10 general & BSB to make all Ld test pass.

Why would the über unit stop at 1" from DR1? Catching a fleeing unit would automaticly destroy it.

If, for whatever reason, a unit completes a charge against a fleeing enemy, move the charging unit(s) into contact with the fleeing enemy as described earlier and then the fleeing unit is run down by the chargers.

p.23 Charging a fleeing enemy

[Meteor]

Doesn't that rule only apply to the target unit you're actually charging at?

And you're both wrong too, the only real way to learn your army is by playing lots of games so you become familiar with your units. By the way, tell him to go back to 40k, he obviously doesn't belong in fantasy. First and foremost, he references fantasy books by the word 'codex'. Secondly, well, there doesn't need to be a secondly.

Also, you can easily prove the value of a peg rider against shooting. Simply pick up a handful of dice, place the peg lord on the table, and tell him to roll dice for all those 'miniguns' cannons and mortars at the peglord and see how many turns worth of shots it takes for him to kill the peglord. Then add the pegmaster with the Cloak and Dawnstone to the mix and see how long it takes him to kill both. Point out by the time that has happened, both models would've wiped out all those warmachines by then.

Finally, it is also viable to send the unkillable stubborn peglord in and watch it hold the 35strong unit of Chosen for most of the game. Remember WoC champs and characters must challenge, so your peglord will only be fighting one model at a time for most of the time, provided you don't butcher the poor champ. It is also a good chance to assassinate any and all characters in the unit if you constantly give your peglord KB from a nearby CoB. Sit a BSB within range of your peglord to be extra safe. Then you still have a good 70% of your army left to mop up the squishy marauders, (14 WE at seven wide will suffice honestly) and that third random unit with your BG + combat character and the entirety of your army.

[Vulcan]

Why would the über unit stop at 1" from DR1? Catching a fleeing unit would automaticly destroy it.

By a strict reading of the rules, there is no way a charging unit can catch a fleeing unit, IF it was originally facing the unit it is fleeing.

It all comes down to two rules - the rule determining which side of the unit you must make contact with when you charge (this is determined at the point where you declare the charge, BEFORE charge reactions are declared, much less resolved); and the rule stating that you must, in fact, complete a charge against a fleeing unit to run it down.

You see, when you declare the charge against a unit facing you, if it turns to flee, you are still comitted to reaching it's FRONT to charge it... which is impossible within the restrictions of a charge move - i.e. only a single 90-degree wheel. There is no exception made for a unit fleeing. And since you can't reach it's front, you can't complete the charge.

It's clearly a case of bad editing of the 8E rules. You should be determining the side of the unit you need to make contact with AFTER charge reactions are resolved, not BEFORE. But because of the way the rules are written, well, that facing change a fleeing unit makes can doom a charge before it even begins... IF the player with the fleeing unit is a sufficiently TFG rules-lawyer.

[Meteor]

Yay...more unnecessary technicalities to confuse people with. Love it.

[Calisson]

Why would the über unit stop at 1" from DR1? Catching a fleeing unit would automaticly destroy it.

By a strict reading of the rules, there is no way a charging unit can catch a fleeing unit, IF it was originally facing the unit it is fleeing.

It's more simple:
the über-unit is no longer charging DR1, so DR1 becomes impassable terrain.