Full unit BG > worth the points ?

Zenith · Post by **Zenith** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:31 pm

Just your thoughts about the investment for a full unit BG, including command, magic banner and champion.,

Roughly 340 points. For a 20 men unit. Yes very reliable, warrior elite and all that. But real squishy, See this unit get under a template of some sort, and then almost cry when you see the leftover unit. And then ask ourself, was it worth it?

Post by **Dyvim tvar** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:31 pm

Your points are slightly high -- a unit of 20 with command is 295, and the only banners I ever use are Banner of Murder or Eternal Flame, so that's 320.

To answer your question, I think it depends who you are fighting, but in most cases they do well. The big templates are less prevalent these days since Empire Mortars have been nerfed in the new book, and unless you are fighting Bretonnians, it is rare to see more than 1 stone thrower. Plus you can always take the Ironcurse Icon for 5 points and deploy only 2 deep if you are worried about templates.

Lord arlroth · Post by **Lord arlroth** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:42 am

I quite like WoA on the unit champion (when it's not being used elsewhere) - It provides a bit of a shock when units run into the BG and get hit with hero-level damage from the champ.

I have a question though, what is the most effective formation to run BG in in terms of ranks? As far as I can see 10x2 (against hoards) or 3x7 (against 5x wide units) would always be optimal as you're maximising attacks out, and don't really care about the number of your own ranks due to stubborn - I can't really think of a situation where I would ever want to run them at only 5 wide).

Note I'm asking about a unit of 20, not a conga line or a smaller flanking unit

Post by **Dalamar** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:14 am

I run Black Guard in two formations only.

5x4 if they are meant to fight opponents that aren't going to kill many but have plenty of ranks themselves (so mostly core units). That way Black Guard will start removing Steadfast a little sooner.

Or 3x7 + a Master or Dreadlord, when they are meant to go toe to toe with enemy elites and win in a brutal combat (don't try this against Chaos Warriors though... Black Guard are way too squishy).

Post by **Dyvim tvar** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:08 am

Unless facing something really elite where I want to minimize return attacks, I go as wide as necessary to maximize my own attacks. For example, against a horde of 30 flagellants one game I went 12 wide. Really bloody combat, but I prevailed and the enemy unit was dead after 3 rounds (almost got him in 2).

Mr. anderson · Post by **Mr. anderson** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:34 am

Dyvim Tvar wrote:Unless facing something really elite where I want to minimize return attacks, I go as wide as necessary to maximize my own attacks. For example, against a horde of 30 flagellants one game I went 12 wide. Really bloody combat, but I prevailed and the enemy unit was dead after 3 rounds (almost got him in 2).

Was that back when they were WS2? These days I'm rather scared of Flagellants to be honest. It doesn't take much for them to re-roll hits in the first turn of combat. Even if you take down 20 out of 30 flagellants, the remaining 10 will make a dreadful dent in your unit unless you've given them a 5+ ward...

I run mine 6x3 but that's only because I only have 17 and a dreadlord at the moment (and I ain't buying 5 extra for 55 ausdollars. Just. Not. Happening). Once I find some on ebay I shall run them 7x3 and let them take on elite units as long as they're not chaos chosen or some such.

Post by **Calisson** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:05 am

Remember, you can reform during combat.
IIRC, even if you lose, pending a Ld test.
But only to get more models in contact, and/or to face a flanker.
And only if attacked on a single side.

This said, there should be only three settings for BG:
- If you're facing less elite than BG (most of the case), that's two models wider, i.e. 12 wide against hordes, 7 against buses...
- If you're facing more elite than BG, but not that bad (i.e. you're anticipating receiving more wounds than making), then 5 wide is the norm: sooner or later, the opponent will fluff the attacks and the rank bonus will prevail.
- If you're facing really bad opponents, then get as close as possible to the conga line. You don't care about rank bonus, only survival matters. And we"re not chivalrous Brets, are we?

Maxing at 20 is a necessity, or minimizing at 5, no command.
I don't see much interest for anything in between.

The Ironcurse Icon is a must against anything that has template warmachines, as the BG will magnet incoming shots.

Don't forget also that the champ is not unlikely to win the underdog challenge, and if he dies, he gives away no VP till the whole unit dies.

For the banner, I second Dyvim Tvar.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:05 am

I've not really found myself using BG in this edition. Not because a full unit is so expensive, but because it's so middle of the road.

For me, the 20 cap is a headache. It means that my opponent only needs to pour so much missile fire or damage doing magic onto the unit before it is effectively compromised. I can offset this a bit by adding a character with the ring of darkness and/or nulltalismans, but then the cost is starting to creep very high indeed, bearing in mind you're still stuck with a unit of just 21 or 22 (the cap plus the characters). And the added problem with being a missile/magic target is that every time one of them dies, you are losing more points than every time any other infantry troop model in your army dies. And that hurts.

If you could take more models, you could insulate them from the impact of mass shooting/magic a bit more. And back in the days of 7th ed when MSU was often the best way to win (and magic and missiles were both a) less scary and b) easier to protect again), it didn't matter if you lost half a unit of 14 going across the board, as only the front 7 mattered. But now in the days of mammoth units and deep units of 10 ranks plus, you really can't afford to have a unit that lacks depth, and having just 20 does. Even if you do get all 20 into combat successfully, the wear and tear of fighting against a mammoth means you still may get worn down into nothing in a turn or two, without routing the enemy. Not cool.

No, for me I'll stick with non-capped options like executioners, witch elves, warriors and even corsairs. Unlike the capped Blackguard, they can take some damage crossing the board and still deal a fiercesome punch when they get into combat. Until the new book comes, they'll continue to stay in the box, defending Malekith or something.

Mr. anderson · Post by **Mr. anderson** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am

They're not as middle of the road as your comment suggests, Red. With a dreadlord in them they can take on most elite units (save death stars) and defeat or whittle them down seriously. Middle of the road (in my eyes) are empire greatswords - not good enough to go play with the big kids (stat and equpiment wise) and too expensive to be taken as a unit for facing off chaff and hordes.

As long as you have other threatening units on the board, black guard probably do stand a chance to get into combat relatively unscratched (especially with magic resistance and a ward, courtesy of the cauldron of blood).

Keeping in mind that the last time I played WHFB properly was 6ish years ago and until now I've only played very irregularly.

From what I've heard the meta seems to be very shooty or monstrous cavalry heavy, at least in the UK/ETC environment which is the only place I'm really getting any information from) so all of my musings might be complete rubbish.

Killerk · Post by **Killerk** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:39 pm

well Anderson a unit of BG with a DL, is close to 650 point's give or take, they are made up of 20 (5+ save) wound's and a character. I killed hord's of the said weaker GS, in one round with magic and shooting. and it takes less effort to deal with the BG. Yea a ward save helps but that's another 225p minimum investment, at 900 point's there are just better thing's at our disposal. And still you cant go up against a decent block of chaos infantry.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:14 pm

At S4 they really can't take on all of the big boys, even with an armour piercing banner: they lack the strength to really threaten T4 foes and the armour piercing punch to deal with heavily armoured foes (a 1+ saving heavy cavalry model is still saving on 3+, even a Chaos Warrior with shield is saving on a 5+).

But that's not my problem, it's more that if you run the unit opposite a unit of Empire Handgunners or High Elf Archers or Wood Elf Archers or Goblin Archers or in fact anything that has the ability to put out mass missile fire (or magic missiles or template weapons), they can be too easily reduced in number to an ineffective level. A unit of 40 Execs that takes 15 casualties is still 25 strong and thus effective. A unit of Blackguard that takes the same amount of casualties is reduced to 5 strong and thus ineffective. I'd rather pay more to have the unit of Execs that survives to make it into combat as an effective fighting force. No, for me until the unit cap is off, they are just too much of a mediocre option: too many points for me to use as a diversion, but too few to have the backbone needed to be a hammer against any but the most average of foes.

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:16 pm

Mmm... I think most covers their problems. I have used them in a tournament once, and they lacked the strength to take down T4, have little armor so they die rather easily, and... 2 attacks isn't enough.

They have I6 though, so they can kill a lot of smaller units rather quickly without any losses, but... I use witch elves, and with AP banner, I get more attacks, actually wound more often thanks to poison, and also got I6. They are also stubborn as I have the cauldron around anyways, so...

Geist · Post by **Geist** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:11 am

Black guard the dark elf whipping boy unit.
Crap ton of great rules that make them kick ass. One fatal flaw.
20max. When unit size didnt matter so much i would take them all the time. Now that size matters they sit on my work bench gathering dust.

Like others have said, they a very good high offense unit, but cant take any damage back. Need more of them. 40 is a good size.

The warchief · Post by **The warchief** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:05 pm

If the max 20 cap was removed would you take more? if so how many?

Demetrius · Post by **Demetrius** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:38 pm

The Warchief wrote:If the max 20 cap was removed would you take more? if so how many?

Id take 40, because I have 40 of them

And, because they would never lose. They will likely win any grind war because of Warriors elite and I6, and will be stubborn with LD9 and a reroll (uh, yeah there is a COB behind them!).

Come to think about it, maybe a unit cap on them is a good balancing mechanism...

Mr. anderson · Post by **Mr. anderson** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:11 pm

Well we'll always struggle against massed shooting (T3 does that to you...) but with the 5+ cauldron ward and with some shadow magic to reduce BS or chill wind, and with other threats on the board they'll eat their share of missiles (and won't run away). If you get a pegasus rider, harpies and dark riders up in their faces backed up by a hydra and a large unit of cold ones, they can still do mop up duty quite well seeing as even five of them can do a fair bit of damage. Plus I like the model so I shall try to make them work anyway.

As for taking on heavy cavalry - well, no. They're not good at that. But we have frenzied corsairs with killing blow and cold one knights for that, don't we?

Maybe I just want to like them too much...

In an environment of mammoth units, the unit cap of 20 does seem out of place. They would be nice if you could take 30. I think the biggest problem is that elves just can't handle being hit back and in 8th edition there isn't much you can do to avoid that other than hitting them with tough monsters, heavy cav and shoot them to death, then mop up the remnants. I like close combat though, and we do seem to struggle there quite a bit.

40 executioners does seem like a bit of a waste to me though if you're fielding the unit fully expecting half of them to die before they get there. And they suffer even more from the hitting back problem because of the whole striking last business. They can probably take on a unit for a turn or two but against chaos warriors they'll crumble, perhaps quicker than the black guard. I like the models (they were the first ones I bought without ever looking at the dreadful army book we had back in the day).

I think black guard can work really well if you combine them with shadow debuffs (or word of pain, or both) and only use them against other elite units that aren't in horde formation. Time will tell if I'm right (well the time I spend stubbornly using the unit, anyway).

Dakeyras · Post by **Dakeyras** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:41 pm

The black guard are easily my fav unit, they are absolute peerless killers. All of my regular opponents hate them with a passion, and rightly so, for time and again it is the black guard who are directly responsible for their demise. They are AMAZING vs eilte cav, they just need the correct support. Throw killing blow/extra attack on a unit of armour piercing black guard with crimson death, and just see what they do to chaos knights/empire knights/any cavalry you care to name.
My black guard got hit by 10 black knights with nasty wight king character the other day, and when the dust settled ALL of the knights were gone, for the loss of one elf. I inwardly leap with joy if my opponent is crazy enough to cav charge the black guard.
As for massed infantry units, well, they are not spared the wrath of the black guard either. it is just a question of internal synergy; my massed ranks of rxb's shred big blocks from a distance, so when the black guard close in for the kill, the block of 100 clan rats is only 50, of which the black guard will kill half of in one round.
As to war machines, I generally find my opponents get one, maybe 2 rounds of shooting in before the shades/harpies/peg masters end that threat.
Add in shadow magic to melting pot, as mr Anderson mentioned, and there really are only a handful of units that can compete with them, and if your in a jam....mindrazor please!
They are capped at 20 for a very, very good reason. Khain above, I shudder to think what a horde of 30 of these gor-soaked nutters would do to peoples faces...it would just be silly.
I would never consider letting these guys take to the field without the support of the cauldron, but then I would never leave home without the cauldron anywhoo, so no worries.

Post by **Calisson** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:07 pm

About COB support,
Execs need 5+ and +1att, but not KB,
SSS Corsairs/WE need KB, but not +1att,
BG is the most versatile recipient, any blessing is great, you adapt according to the need.

Saintofm · Post by **Saintofm** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:15 am

the 20 man gap was ok in the last eddition, most units were that size and there wasn't much of a point to go bigger unless you were spamming ranks or were using 7 wide units.

Today, not so much. Unless it's a small game, I'd prefer to have at least another 8 black guard in that unit and have 4 7 man wide ranks.

Still, immune to psychology, Standard of hag Grief, and a tooled up assassin do make the unit worth notice.

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:42 am

I would also like to say that I'd use the BG unit the few times I would like to run a Dread Lord with Executioners Axe.

Having the ASF banner in the unit, means that you can actually take down most small units quickly with the BG's and the big ones with the lord, without getting struck down first.

To protect the unit a bit more, you can run Ring of Darkness and 3 null talismans. With a 5+ ward from CoB, you will have 2+ wards against magic, and it'll be hard to kill the unit with BS shooting... the templates will still kill the unit quickly though.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:57 am

The problem there is that you end up with a unit that costs a ton.

20 Blackguard with full command, Standard of HG and Crimson Death: 355
1 Dreadlord with Execs Axe, Blood armour and sea dragon cloak: 241
1 Master with Ring of Darkness, Dragon helm and full mundane armour: 200
1 Master with 3 Null Talismans, Iron Curse Icon and full mundane armour: 200 points.

996 Points for as unit of 23 models. It's Deathstar/points sync land and that Dwellers Below / Final Transmutation / Infernal Gateway is going to hurt like heck.

I can see the purpose of BG as a hold up force (e.g. 10 BG as a stubborn ITP road block) but even there I struggle to believe that this is necessarily the best way to achieve this effect...

Omnichron · Post by **Omnichron** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:16 am

Yeah, that's the reason why I don't like deathstars... too much points in one place.

I've had a lot of success with a shade deathstar with executioners axe, ASF banner, 3 null talismans on a lvl 4 death sorceress and ring of darkness on a master, +rending manbane assassin... but that's another story :lol:

Killerk · Post by **Killerk** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:44 pm

Red... wrote:The problem there is that you end up with a unit that costs a ton.

20 Blackguard with full command, Standard of HG and Crimson Death: 355
1 Dreadlord with Execs Axe, Blood armour and sea dragon cloak: 241
1 Master with Ring of Darkness, Dragon helm and full mundane armour: 200
1 Master with 3 Null Talismans, Iron Curse Icon and full mundane armour: 200 points.

996 Points for as unit of 23 models. It's Deathstar/points sync land and that Dwellers Below / Final Transmutation / Infernal Gateway is going to hurt like heck.

I can see the purpose of BG as a hold up force (e.g. 10 BG as a stubborn ITP road block) but even there I struggle to believe that this is necessarily the best way to achieve this effect...

vs. 150 point's of sallies, and the BG get's evaporated in one round.

I have experimented, and for me the ideal unit size is 7/8 model's, just for pure point/effectiveness. most times a max of 6 BG is killed. And if some thing nasty is approaching, Congo line. or show your flank, if you want to be less cheesy.

Prince fabulas · Post by **Prince fabulas** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:37 am

I have found the +1LD banner useful and also +1M.

I don't take flame anymore (too many 2+ wards) unless there will be a building assault.

But I think banner of murder is the best.

Banner of Hag Graef only against HE (strike simultaneously) or if you have soul render so champ doesn't die.

I find it is way better to include a DL or master with these weapons rather than a champ who is too easy to kill.

But I think the best set-up is 20 + Music. for 267 points.

Killerk · Post by **Killerk** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:33 pm

If I was to make an army using BG, I would take 2 unit's of 20, plus a lot of support and possibly dragon, with 3 lv 2's. on 2xshadow 1x metal or fire.