On the feasibility of evasion lists

[Heartsbane]

Hi all,

Am new to the forum, and virtually new to dark elves (one previous attempt to collect them aborted after a single game), but a long time fantasy player looking for a change of pace from dwarfs.

I'm interested in a very agile dark elf force, themed around coastal raiders, so corsiars, harpies, dark riders and perhaps a few shades, backed up by some characters on pegasi. Having looked through the DRAICH (nice collection of tactics and strategic discussions there, by the way!) I notice that while there are some treatise on how to use such a force, they are all outdated. Are people not using this type of list in 8th, or are the methods for using it just the same as before?

I'm leaning towards not including hydras, as such an MSU style approach would seem to work by overwhelming the enemy with a multitude of relatively low priority targets, whilst the snake headed beasties would seem to offer them something concrete to aim at, reducing it's chances of making a contribution before it dies. That aside, are there any units that are so well suited to such a list I'd be a fool to leave them out? Any that look like they'd fit but are a trap?

P.S. I know there's mixed feelings about dark riders, so I'll be aiming to try them out (proxying if possible to avoid investing weeks of my life converting and painting them only to find them useless), and see how things go from there.

[Calisson]

Thanks for the appreciation. The D.R.A.I.C.H. is updated when a goodwilling D.netter contributes to it. Not when there is a need for an update.


Evasion lists can work. See the "French ETC Dark Elves Flying fun." thread for a pure evasion list.
As soon as you include corsairs, your list is no longer purely evasive; it may well remain very evasive, with a solid less mobile unit.

Corsairs are best with the SSS. Large units fare well, and benefit tremendously from COB and Shadows sorceress, because of the sheer number of attacks.
Without all these boost, you'll find them deceiving.


MSU has been said to be dead in 8th edition, but later on it has proved not to be true.
Still, the main purpose of 7th ed MSU was to kill all models in contact, therefore not fearing any retaliation, in order to win the combat by such a margin than seeing the opponent flee was near guaranteed.
Nowadays, rear ranks step up so you will face retaliation from large units (that's the bane of the assassins and DH); and the unit with more ranks is steadfast, and makes break tests ignoring combat result, which makes it much less likely to run away, and much more likely to fight another round, when our hatred is lost, and when rescue could come.

The way to use MLSU is more subtle.
It is to have the first rank of units so killy that they eat their value back before being destroyed, or possibly remove the flesh of a large mammoth fast enough for steadfast not to be a problem.
It is about selecting the right combats.
It is about feeding opponent's über-unit with little sacrificial units, while we kill the rest of the army and win by objectives or victory points.


DR are not useless. They absolutely need musicians.
There are few mentions of successful ones with shields.
They are best played in small units.
The champion is not said to be useful.
This leaves the choice of giving them RXB or not, and a banner or not.

The unit that must be taken is a sorceress. On a pegasus, that's fine and goes well along with your MSU idea.

[Heartsbane]

I figured there may well be a correllation between how well a list works and the number of people using it, and a similar correllation between the number of users of a list and the frequency with which one of them is willing to provide an update to the D.R.A.I.C.H. which is why I asked. Still, good to hear it works, and I'll check out the French ETC list. Oh, and if there still hasn't been an update to the D.R.A.I.C.H. on evasion lists by the time I'm profficient with them, I'll see if I can put something together...

Heh, I'm well aware of steadfast and step up, it's made a world of difference to my dwarfs! I like the idea of nibbling away at big units, and will attempt to work out good units for taking a bigger bite than the unit itself costs for potential inclusion.

Regarding corsairs, I was thinking of a unit of 20 with SSS & 2HW, and two units of 14 with RHBs. You can tell I've come to elves from dwarfs, I still think M5 is fast A shadow sorceress is looking likely; a sorceress of some sort is certain to help differentiate them from my dwarfs) and shadow seems to offer the best mix of buffs, hexes, mobility boosts and direct damage. Light is the only other lore that seems to come close, and that's almost a non-starter for Druchi...

The other advantage of corsairs is I'm pretty confident they'll be largely left alone whenever the new book rolls around. Warriors I can see getting a points rise, and dark riders may not stay in core. Nothing would suck more than spending a year or so assembling a nicely themed army only to have it trashed by a new book mere months later... (not that I have any info on a new book other than the speculation on warseer, so this is mostly conjecture on my part!)

[Calisson]

Light is not available to Druchii.

RHB corsairs are said to work fine in hordes, but that is with the SSS.
48 corsairs is probably some 18 too many, though (sad to admit it).
Get used to them before you buy too many.

[Zenith]

The other advantage of corsairs is I'm pretty confident they'll be largely left alone whenever the new book rolls around. Warriors I can see getting a points rise, and dark riders may not stay in core. Nothing would suck more than spending a year or so assembling a nicely themed army only to have it trashed by a new book mere months later... (not that I have any info on a new book other than the speculation on warseer, so this is mostly conjecture on my part!)

Would not count on a new book for a while. I might take some years when that will happen.

For the cost of those corsairs, you can have loads more warriors instead.

[Heartsbane]

Dark elves can technically get light, either by allied wizards in storm of magic or through the wizarding hat and a lucky dice roll in a normal game. Neither's a strategy I want to build an army around though....

As to timing, I refuse to play with unpainted models, so it'll take me a while to get up to 1500 points. My rough sketch of a list has 9 units/characters, and abitious projection would see me paint 1 a month. At that rate, it'd be mid 2013 before I start playing such games, and an imminent new book might not be so far off. And all that's assuming I stop painting my dwarfs, Man O War collection, or models for the D&D game I run, none of which I intend to do stop. This is going to be something of a long term project, but if I paint faster than hoped (Hah!) then I may enter them for armies on parade next year.

Will definately play a few smaller games though to test things out before comitting to further purchases. On that subject, some units in dwarf armies are more use in small games than larger ones; eg crossbow-men with great weapons are great in units of 15-20 up to about 1500 points, but after that larger units are needed and it stops being cost effective, so somewhere between 1500 and 2000 they usually get axed from the list. Are there similar units in a dark elf force which are more or less useful in different sized games?

[Kajchi]

New Dark Elves are rumoured to be released late 2013 according to warseer. But it's far off so might not be accurate

source: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthrea ... lf-Rumours

Can't help much with the evasion list though.

[Mostlyharmless]

Evasion lists can still be great. I run an evasion list in tournaments, and my opponents whimper when they can't seem to keep up. Of course, playing evasion doesn't mean you don't pack a heavy punch. It just means that you apply the maximum amount of force where it is needed. It means combat happens when you decide.

I run lots of dark riders, lots of cold one knights, chariots, flying monsters, and yes, hydras. That's how you play an evasion list. You ride circles around them until you decide to end their suffering.

PS. Dark riders are among the best fast cavalry in the game. 18" move and 24" range with a crossbow that fires twice gives them an affective range of 44". There are very few fast cav units that can boast that for the bargain cost, the fact that they are core, and keep up with the raw firepower.

[Lorddrittz]

One other thing is to select the magic you use carefully with an evasion list.

I am thinking Death can be good maybe on a Lvl4 with the Focus Familiar for the extra range.

Backed up by a Fire/Metal or Shadow Mage.