So I've been playing a lot of 8th edition games recently and besides learning that War Hydra's are broken (big news, I know). Is that it seems the most effective bang for my buck unit is my RxBs. It's partly due to how a field them, 1 unit of 40 with shields a standard and a musician.
They form the center of my battle line deploying 2x20 at first and then swift refroming to 4x10 whenever an enemy unit gets too close. I can usually get 2-3 rounds of 80 shots off before they need to reform. This usually decimates infantry blocks or takes down one big thing (shoot more pins at the dragon! AIM FOR THE EYES). With high initiative, 30 attacks, hatred, and a parry save, they make an EXTREMELY effective HtH combat unit.
They survive most games and usually take down at least one unit. They also make great bunkers for sorceresses and BSBs. In any game over 1500 pts they're now included in my list.
I was wondering if any of you have found any ridiculously effective units and have tips how to run them (war hydras don't count).
Best bang for your buck unit? (Excluding Hydras of Course)
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
The unit that immediately enter my mind is our infamous deadly ladies who like to bathe in blood, the Witch Elves.
Although they have the big weaknesses of having no protection, only being T3, and frenzied so they can be chaffed out, their offensive powers are extreme. I've used the witch elves in 3 out of 4 tournaments with 2k+ pts, and they've been the best unit for me every single tournament (Even with hydras). You have something like the witch elves, the corsairs, however I don't feel they are even close to the witch elves unfortunately. The witches have poison and a natural frenzy, which means that you will score a lot more wounds and get different kinds of banners you might need (Especially Banner of Murder). How do I use them?
Well, I always take a musician for the smaller versions I use: 5 of them or 14. The first is more like harpies, a bump in the road. However as you can give them KB or +1 attack and then mindrazor them, they can be a much bigger threat than the harpies, and both cost the same amount of points. The bigger version of 14 is a much more reliable version. You can sacrifice it as well as it's cheap, but as it is so much bigger, you can throw them into close combat heroes/lords and have enough to get a KB or mindrazored attacks in and kill the opponent. At 14, you have enough to threated things like the Kaidan destroyer as well as other dangerous monsters.
The versions I tend to use almost all the time is the 21 big one. Having them 7 wide, I get the same amount of attacks as the 14 one, but as they have more bodies to take from, I add full command to them and put in the banner of murder. This means you get I6 killers that can punch through some armor as well... and suddenly those chaos warriors with halberds starts to lose a bit more than they'd like. Again, the cauldron buffs (Mostly use ward or +1 attack from it), as well as being stubborn within 12 of the cauldron, means that they can take on more than they can handle, and lets you get the round you need to kill whatever attack them. A horde version of 30 is also quite nice, but once you get over the 300 pts for a unit, I feel that you invest a bit too much on a unit that can be unreliable (Thanks to frenzy).
The things that works best with them is of course the cauldron and a shadow sorceress... those are so well known that I won't even go into the hows and whys.
'The other thing that makes them work really well though, is the items you have to take down chaff/redirectors: Lifetaker, Shades, Crossbowmen, Master Pegasuses, dark magic or other magic missles.
The third thing that makes them work, is using harpies and/or shades to shield them on the way. As I always use harpies and often have the shades, it's easy to prevent normal BS firepower to take them down. Of course, magic is one of the worst enemies against them together with template weapons (Which is a pain for any troops we have).
The biggest reason to why I like them, is how much you get for them. Even those times they get chaffed out or killed, they are just a small piece of the army, so it doesn't really matter that much to me if I lose them. However, it's also very rare I do lose them, so I would definitly give them some tries if you haven't already.
Although they have the big weaknesses of having no protection, only being T3, and frenzied so they can be chaffed out, their offensive powers are extreme. I've used the witch elves in 3 out of 4 tournaments with 2k+ pts, and they've been the best unit for me every single tournament (Even with hydras). You have something like the witch elves, the corsairs, however I don't feel they are even close to the witch elves unfortunately. The witches have poison and a natural frenzy, which means that you will score a lot more wounds and get different kinds of banners you might need (Especially Banner of Murder). How do I use them?
Well, I always take a musician for the smaller versions I use: 5 of them or 14. The first is more like harpies, a bump in the road. However as you can give them KB or +1 attack and then mindrazor them, they can be a much bigger threat than the harpies, and both cost the same amount of points. The bigger version of 14 is a much more reliable version. You can sacrifice it as well as it's cheap, but as it is so much bigger, you can throw them into close combat heroes/lords and have enough to get a KB or mindrazored attacks in and kill the opponent. At 14, you have enough to threated things like the Kaidan destroyer as well as other dangerous monsters.
The versions I tend to use almost all the time is the 21 big one. Having them 7 wide, I get the same amount of attacks as the 14 one, but as they have more bodies to take from, I add full command to them and put in the banner of murder. This means you get I6 killers that can punch through some armor as well... and suddenly those chaos warriors with halberds starts to lose a bit more than they'd like. Again, the cauldron buffs (Mostly use ward or +1 attack from it), as well as being stubborn within 12 of the cauldron, means that they can take on more than they can handle, and lets you get the round you need to kill whatever attack them. A horde version of 30 is also quite nice, but once you get over the 300 pts for a unit, I feel that you invest a bit too much on a unit that can be unreliable (Thanks to frenzy).
The things that works best with them is of course the cauldron and a shadow sorceress... those are so well known that I won't even go into the hows and whys.
'The other thing that makes them work really well though, is the items you have to take down chaff/redirectors: Lifetaker, Shades, Crossbowmen, Master Pegasuses, dark magic or other magic missles.
The third thing that makes them work, is using harpies and/or shades to shield them on the way. As I always use harpies and often have the shades, it's easy to prevent normal BS firepower to take them down. Of course, magic is one of the worst enemies against them together with template weapons (Which is a pain for any troops we have).
The biggest reason to why I like them, is how much you get for them. Even those times they get chaffed out or killed, they are just a small piece of the army, so it doesn't really matter that much to me if I lose them. However, it's also very rare I do lose them, so I would definitly give them some tries if you haven't already.
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
Yea, the ladies are a common part of my army. I run the unit of 14 with the Banner of Murder. I like to put them right in front of armor save 2+ knights and dare my opponent to charge. They usually bite on the potential to eat a no armored small unit. They quickly find that 22-35 pt knights (common in many armies) die to the small tactical unit and don't cause enough damage back to make up their points. +1 armor save knights don't care as much, but are rarer.
Unfortunately, I see a lot of high elves and the ladies are pretty much worthless against them, unless you take them en masse to survive the ASF of our haughty brethren.
Unfortunately, I see a lot of high elves and the ladies are pretty much worthless against them, unless you take them en masse to survive the ASF of our haughty brethren.
Re: Best bang for your buck unit? (Excluding Hydras of Cours
(Mod's note: hydra mention removed - Calisson)
Now onto the actual topic
My unit of choice would be either Cold one Knights or Witch elves( Or both if you can afford them). These units accomplish everything you need and they are priced decently.
If you need to bypas heavy armor go for CoK. If you need to kill hordes go for witches. If you need both go for both. Banner of murder is a nice addition to the witches but it works on the CoK as well since on the subsequent turns they are merely s4 so it gives them a bit of sustainability. Also the Knights are heavily armored so agains armies who spam mass s3/4 attacks those knights will provide a nice tank. I usualy run them on a unit of 10(sometimes with a Hydra banner BSB included). The witches are always on horde formation 30 models.
I would opt for a 40-60(depending on comp) warrior unit as a cheap anvil I prefer it atm to the BG since BG are caped at 20 models their cost is higher and those s4 attacks are nothing special in comparison to the abovemetnioned units sure they can rerol to hit on every turn but still they got a punny 5+ armor for their cost they die easily, small in numbers hence not enough to perform for a long combat. I'm not takng under account CoB blessing here because any unit can proffit from it).
So to sum up:
1) 10 COK(with or without Hydra BSB + AP banner either murder or razor)
2) 30 WE banner of murder
3) 40-60 warriors(standrad of discipline anvil tarpit duty)
@Omincron: How do you find it with the new comp on ETC for shadow magic? Now if I would go magic I realy think I'd opt for metal + WE instead of shadow and since WE got poison but still s3 Seems metal is a nice buff on them. Any thoughts?
PS: There is the combo that makes BG realy useful though and I forgot to mention. If you want a lord with executioners axe then you can get a unit of BG with ASF banner and put the lord in there that's quite a nasty combo.
Now onto the actual topic
My unit of choice would be either Cold one Knights or Witch elves( Or both if you can afford them). These units accomplish everything you need and they are priced decently.
If you need to bypas heavy armor go for CoK. If you need to kill hordes go for witches. If you need both go for both. Banner of murder is a nice addition to the witches but it works on the CoK as well since on the subsequent turns they are merely s4 so it gives them a bit of sustainability. Also the Knights are heavily armored so agains armies who spam mass s3/4 attacks those knights will provide a nice tank. I usualy run them on a unit of 10(sometimes with a Hydra banner BSB included). The witches are always on horde formation 30 models.
I would opt for a 40-60(depending on comp) warrior unit as a cheap anvil I prefer it atm to the BG since BG are caped at 20 models their cost is higher and those s4 attacks are nothing special in comparison to the abovemetnioned units sure they can rerol to hit on every turn but still they got a punny 5+ armor for their cost they die easily, small in numbers hence not enough to perform for a long combat. I'm not takng under account CoB blessing here because any unit can proffit from it).
So to sum up:
1) 10 COK(with or without Hydra BSB + AP banner either murder or razor)
2) 30 WE banner of murder
3) 40-60 warriors(standrad of discipline anvil tarpit duty)
@Omincron: How do you find it with the new comp on ETC for shadow magic? Now if I would go magic I realy think I'd opt for metal + WE instead of shadow and since WE got poison but still s3 Seems metal is a nice buff on them. Any thoughts?
PS: There is the combo that makes BG realy useful though and I forgot to mention. If you want a lord with executioners axe then you can get a unit of BG with ASF banner and put the lord in there that's quite a nasty combo.
'And lo, he shall rule with a dark hand and his shadow shall touch uppon every land.'
Single combat I await
My shadow brings them fear
The spikes upon my chariot
Will grind them when they're near...
Single combat I await
My shadow brings them fear
The spikes upon my chariot
Will grind them when they're near...
(Mod's note: hydra mention removed - Calisson)
Anyway.
I've tried big cheap spearmen blocks, but the 40m RxBs or 40 Corsairs with 2H + frenzy banner always seem to outperform the spears (survive more, have additional benefits ie ranged or 3A). I am partial to a 30m spearmen block with warbanner as a small portable cheap bunker for staying in combat (or winning it) forever.
My other interest is with your WE formation. I've seen the 30m WE unit pop up a few times and I just don't understand the math. In my experience, any player worth his salt knows to shoot/magic a no armor unit that hits hard in HtH. So you're going to lose a few there. With no-casualty lines you're already losing attacks. Maybe if they're small enough (14m) you'll fly low on the target priority list in a big game, but not 30.
Then, most low point lists (goblins, bret infantry, empire, tomb kings, VC) field 60m infantry units that have too many attacks back against undefended WE's to justify 30 as a 'horde' killer. So if 30 isn't a 'horde' killer then why bother ranking them that wide? (In all these scenarios the WE kill 3:2 the enemy units, but the enemies don't flee from combat because of stubborn ranks, and their attacks back will eventually take down the WE block)
Just drop to the 7x4 28m formation and get a rank to die from fire and a great unit at taking out non-horde units. I could see upping the unit to 40-50 to make it into a true horde killer, just I don't see an army that makes it worth it to rank them up 10x3 over 7X4 (possible 2 exceptions is against Chaos or Ogres).
Just my musings.
Anyway.
I've tried big cheap spearmen blocks, but the 40m RxBs or 40 Corsairs with 2H + frenzy banner always seem to outperform the spears (survive more, have additional benefits ie ranged or 3A). I am partial to a 30m spearmen block with warbanner as a small portable cheap bunker for staying in combat (or winning it) forever.
My other interest is with your WE formation. I've seen the 30m WE unit pop up a few times and I just don't understand the math. In my experience, any player worth his salt knows to shoot/magic a no armor unit that hits hard in HtH. So you're going to lose a few there. With no-casualty lines you're already losing attacks. Maybe if they're small enough (14m) you'll fly low on the target priority list in a big game, but not 30.
Then, most low point lists (goblins, bret infantry, empire, tomb kings, VC) field 60m infantry units that have too many attacks back against undefended WE's to justify 30 as a 'horde' killer. So if 30 isn't a 'horde' killer then why bother ranking them that wide? (In all these scenarios the WE kill 3:2 the enemy units, but the enemies don't flee from combat because of stubborn ranks, and their attacks back will eventually take down the WE block)
Just drop to the 7x4 28m formation and get a rank to die from fire and a great unit at taking out non-horde units. I could see upping the unit to 40-50 to make it into a true horde killer, just I don't see an army that makes it worth it to rank them up 10x3 over 7X4 (possible 2 exceptions is against Chaos or Ogres).
Just my musings.
(Mod's note: hydra mention removed - Calisson)
Elven HtH Lords/Heros are the worst bang for the buck compared to all other armies, so something needs to make up for overpaying for them.
I mean 80 pts for 2W T3 S4 3A. Without expensive magic armor/weapons 2-35pt T4 Goblins have the major edge. (Yes yes with magic items Elven leaders become viable, but damn expensive and still St4 T3 base).
So that's another counter to the ppl that qq too much.
Elven HtH Lords/Heros are the worst bang for the buck compared to all other armies, so something needs to make up for overpaying for them.
I mean 80 pts for 2W T3 S4 3A. Without expensive magic armor/weapons 2-35pt T4 Goblins have the major edge. (Yes yes with magic items Elven leaders become viable, but damn expensive and still St4 T3 base).
So that's another counter to the ppl that qq too much.
Elven HtH Lords/Heros are the worst bang for the buck compared to all other armies, so something needs to make up for overpaying for them.
I mean 80 pts for 2W T3 S4 3A. Without expensive magic armor/weapons 2-35pt T4 Goblins have the major edge. (Yes yes with magic items Elven leaders become viable, but damn expensive and still St4 T3 base).
I have to disagree. Better WS, I, S, LD, M and better items. If you go without magic items, you can have 3+ armor on him while on foot and 4 attacks with AP due to beastmasters whip. Not to mention hatred, so you'll probably kill those goblins quick and easy.
We have some of the better characters in the game due to our magic items too. The other day I brought a master on pegasus with soulrender and pendant (190 pts) into a Warriors of Chaos lord with 3+ ward on disc and 1+ armor (As well as breath weapon and scream and lots of other nice items on him). He was 365 pts and general. Guess what, I killed him after a long and even battle. And I was unlucky to not get a KB into him the first rounds of combat from the CoB buff... that's our cheap master against the strongest lord build I know of (Except the lord I use at bigger lists together with the master).
(Mod's note: hydra mention removed - Calisson)
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
Elf hand-to-hand heroes as the worst bang for the buck compared to other armies? You can't be serious can you?
Field a dark elf dreadlord with the crown of command, pendant of khaine, whip of agony and full mundane armour on a Cold One and you've got possibly the best hand to hand combat character in the game. For around 270 points, you have a character who is has weapon skll 7, leadership 10 with stubborn and immune to psychology, initiative 8, 5 attacks at S5 and AP with hatred and a 1+ armour save followed by an inverse ward save (the only drawback is stupidity, but on leadership 10 and numerous re-roll options now available, that's not as big of a worry as in 7th ed). If stupidity is a worry though, you can instead give him armour of darkness and the sword of might instead, giving him the same strengths, but with -1 attack, no AP and no immune to psych.
That's fairly awesome. In fact, so much so that I'd never take a fully kitted up Elven hand-to-hand lord in a friendly game because it would be viewed as blue smelly stilton cheese cheesy.
(Mod's note: hydra mention removed - Calisson)
Field a dark elf dreadlord with the crown of command, pendant of khaine, whip of agony and full mundane armour on a Cold One and you've got possibly the best hand to hand combat character in the game. For around 270 points, you have a character who is has weapon skll 7, leadership 10 with stubborn and immune to psychology, initiative 8, 5 attacks at S5 and AP with hatred and a 1+ armour save followed by an inverse ward save (the only drawback is stupidity, but on leadership 10 and numerous re-roll options now available, that's not as big of a worry as in 7th ed). If stupidity is a worry though, you can instead give him armour of darkness and the sword of might instead, giving him the same strengths, but with -1 attack, no AP and no immune to psych.
That's fairly awesome. In fact, so much so that I'd never take a fully kitted up Elven hand-to-hand lord in a friendly game because it would be viewed as blue smelly stilton cheese cheesy.
(Mod's note: hydra mention removed - Calisson)
Last edited by Red... on Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
@Myelisik: I didn;t intend it as a personal attack to you mate
(Mod's note: hydra mention removed - Calisson)
(Mod's note: hydra mention removed - Calisson)
'And lo, he shall rule with a dark hand and his shadow shall touch uppon every land.'
Single combat I await
My shadow brings them fear
The spikes upon my chariot
Will grind them when they're near...
Single combat I await
My shadow brings them fear
The spikes upon my chariot
Will grind them when they're near...
(Mod's note: hydra mention removed - Calisson)
Last edited by Kristo on Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
'And lo, he shall rule with a dark hand and his shadow shall touch uppon every land.'
Single combat I await
My shadow brings them fear
The spikes upon my chariot
Will grind them when they're near...
Single combat I await
My shadow brings them fear
The spikes upon my chariot
Will grind them when they're near...
-
Dyvim tvar
- Lord of the Dragon Caves
- Posts: 8372
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
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- Contact:
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Underway
- Silver Khaine Winner
- Posts: 2492
- Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 7:04 pm
- Location: Contemplating the construction of my fleet.
Dark Elf Dreadlords ARE the worst bang for your buck. Models are costed at what they are worth naked, with no magic items. What makes DE characters so dangerous is the cheap access to magic weapons, ward saves, armour AND you can still have points left over for something else. Its the items that make the Dreadlord not the Dreadlord himself. Take him with just basic items against most other characters in the game and he will have a hard time for a significant amount of points. This being said I would say the pendant of khaleth is the best bang for your buck.
Someone also mentions COK's as good value for points, well I completely disagree. COK are overcosted because of the changes to the fear rule. They should go down about 4 pts IMHO and that would be appropriate. At the current cost they are better suited in small units.
I would agree with WE as being a very good value for cost, especially in units of 5. They are frenzied so they won't break to missile fire, they deal a tonne of damage, and they are something you foe HAS to deal with, and usually can't with his own small units (which are light armoured and very vulnerable to WE attacks). For 50pts you can't go wrong.
I would also say that corsairs are probably the best unit overall, and I'm a huge DR fan. For all the reasons Dyvim stated of course, their synergies with the rest of the list are amazing and it doesn't hurt that the models look great.
Someone also mentions COK's as good value for points, well I completely disagree. COK are overcosted because of the changes to the fear rule. They should go down about 4 pts IMHO and that would be appropriate. At the current cost they are better suited in small units.
I would agree with WE as being a very good value for cost, especially in units of 5. They are frenzied so they won't break to missile fire, they deal a tonne of damage, and they are something you foe HAS to deal with, and usually can't with his own small units (which are light armoured and very vulnerable to WE attacks). For 50pts you can't go wrong.
I would also say that corsairs are probably the best unit overall, and I'm a huge DR fan. For all the reasons Dyvim stated of course, their synergies with the rest of the list are amazing and it doesn't hurt that the models look great.
Mod's note:
The title says "no hydra".
The author explained "no hydra".
Now, as moderator, I reiterate "no hydra". Respect the author's will.
I removed all mentions about hydra from this thread.
If anyone needs to talk about hydras, start another thread.
Thanks.
Calisson.
The title says "no hydra".
The author explained "no hydra".
Now, as moderator, I reiterate "no hydra". Respect the author's will.
I removed all mentions about hydra from this thread.
If anyone needs to talk about hydras, start another thread.
Thanks.
Calisson.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
Witch Elves have already been mentioned several times, and against a lot of armies i totally agree.....but when the opponent fields a lot of high armoured troops...like Lizardmen...Bretonnia...Warriors of Chaos...
I think our Black Guard are awesome, especially with the Banner of Murder. That will make even armoured knights think twice about charging them.
I think our Black Guard are awesome, especially with the Banner of Murder. That will make even armoured knights think twice about charging them.
Re: Best bang for your buck unit? (Excluding Hydras of Cours
kristo wrote:@Omincron: How do you find it with the new comp on ETC for shadow magic? Now if I would go magic I realy think I'd opt for metal + WE instead of shadow and since WE got poison but still s3 Seems metal is a nice buff on them. Any thoughts?
Forgot to reply on this. Yes, shadow is comped pretty hard in the current ETC restrictions. Luckily you still have spells like Withering and Enfeebling foe, as well as Miasma. With all these spells and still able to generate 2 dices with sacrifical dagger, you will get two out of those three in most likely. That is if you have all the three spells. All of those are very beneficial for the witch elves in MOST combats.
However, if you don't have mindrazor, you have to make sure you have other things in your list to take down armor. The Witch Elves will be mostly infantry and monster killers, and things like CoK and pegasus heroes will step in for the armor killing for me. In the coming tournament without much restrictions, I am actually running some of the same setup, with 21 WE with banner of murder, 10 CoK with ASF banner and whip of agony, and a master on pegasus with soulrender. Those three choices covers most of what I need to take things down... and the 31 crossbowmen and shadow sorc with guiding eye kinda helps :p
And sorry for mentioning "the thing I'm not allowed to say" here. As it was mentioned, I had to jump onto the wagon and say what I thought about it. I like to discuss things through
No problem for a small occasional drift. Nobody has been blamed. It just gave me something to do.
Sometimes, moderators like to use their dicator's stick!
Calisson.
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
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Bonesaww666
- Corsair
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:21 pm
- Location: Niagara Falls, Canada
I gotta say, Blackguard. I feel awkward not bringing them along for the ride. They reliably stall my foes and take a bloody toll on them doing it! Dollar for dollar they see more table time then any of my other Elites.
Small unit sizes don't really hinder them too much as I find large blocks of my elites are forced to "Eat $@&! And Die" (to put it politely) the majority of the time. If I bring 30-40 Executioners I know exactly where my enemies WMD's are going...
Stubborn mass murder machines, yes please!
Small unit sizes don't really hinder them too much as I find large blocks of my elites are forced to "Eat $@&! And Die" (to put it politely) the majority of the time. If I bring 30-40 Executioners I know exactly where my enemies WMD's are going...
Stubborn mass murder machines, yes please!
•8th My Dark Elf W/D/L•
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Skaven: 3/0/0, High Elves: 4/0/0, OnG: 0/0/0, TK: 0/0/0, WoC: 4/0/1, Ogres: 0/0/0, LM: 0/0/0, Empire: 0/0/0, VC 0/0/1, DoC 0/0/1, Bretonnians: 0/0/1
Calling all Canadians, register and help build the Gaming Scene: http://www.canhammer.freeforums.net/ind ... =thinktank
Models are costed at what they are worth naked, with no magic items.
I disagree. Models are costed based on their stats naked as well as their built in slots. It's like a computer, you may well pay more for a system that has built in expansion slots that you can add things into than one that has no expansion slots or expansion slots that cannot fit the same high tech gadgetry as other systems. Consider orc bosses. You pay more for a Black Orc warboss in part because he can take heavy armour, while normal Orc warbosses cannot. That cost is paid - as part of the naked model cost - prior to paying the cost of actually purchasing the armour for the model.
As to the OP, my vote has to go to Chariots.
With a statline that includes S5, T5, a 3+ armour save, 4 wounds, ITP, cause fear and D6+1 impact hits (at S5) for the chariot, as well as two dudes with WS5, S4 (with spears so S5 on the charge), I6 and hatred, as well as two Cold Ones, these guys are incredible for their points. Charge two simultaneously and they get a staggering 2D6+2 impact hits (average of 9 S5 hits) before even beginning combat. They are cheap enough to take in large numbers (in a typical 3k game I take 3-4), which not only allows me to take control of deployment (my opponent will typically have deployed most of his army before I've run out of chariots, dark riders and harpies), but also allows me to have a lot of redundancy built in in case anything goes wrong (kill 1 of my chariots? not a problem, I have 3 more.) Their only downside is stupidity, but keep them close enough to either the BSB or a leadership 10 general and this shouldn't be too risky - besides, if like me you bring 3 or 4, if one fails a stupidity test - oh well, I have 3 more!
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Don't be a munchkin?
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Dyvim tvar
- Lord of the Dragon Caves
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The problem I have with stupidity these days is inability to flee. It used to be the case that you could charge with a chariot and then flee if the chariot ended up in a position to be charged in turn. No longer an option under 8th Ed rules. They are still good, just not as good as they used to be.
Truly These are the End Times ...
Valid point - but the throwing out of 'S7 = autokill versus chariots' rule more than makes up for the loss of the flee reaction imo. In 7th ed the fact that most armies took an anti-chariot S7 sweeper of some sort (e.g. High Elf noble on flying steed with starlance, dark elf master on dark pegasus with caledor's bane, etc) made chariots an auto-drop for me.
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L1qw1d
- Malekith's Personal Guard
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I believe the point is cost versus kills pay off?
A unit of 20-30 Wych Elves does usually pay off well under that criteria, even before a CoB buff. not a specific Go-To unit, but versatile and functional, especially with a good Banner (heck, sometimes, even putting a +1M makes them MORE efficient lol)
I like crashing into someone with Corsairs or and then the Wych- I've also had my hindquarters saved versus the TK mega-beasty twice with them once or twice lol
A unit of 20-30 Wych Elves does usually pay off well under that criteria, even before a CoB buff. not a specific Go-To unit, but versatile and functional, especially with a good Banner (heck, sometimes, even putting a +1M makes them MORE efficient lol)
I like crashing into someone with Corsairs or and then the Wych- I've also had my hindquarters saved versus the TK mega-beasty twice with them once or twice lol
Oderint dum Metuant.
Red... wrote:Elf hand-to-hand heroes as the worst bang for the buck compared to other armies? You can't be serious can you?
Field a dark elf dreadlord with the crown of command, pendant of khaine, whip of agony and full mundane armour on a Cold One and you've got possibly the best hand to hand combat character in the game. For around 270 points, you have a character who is has weapon skll 7, leadership 10 with stubborn and immune to psychology, initiative 8, 5 attacks at S5 and AP with hatred and a 1+ armour save followed by an inverse ward save ,
What gives him the 5th attack? The whip? If so, how does that work if he is using a shield?
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Liquidedust
- Highborn
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Gidean wrote:Red... wrote:Elf hand-to-hand heroes as the worst bang for the buck compared to other armies? You can't be serious can you?
Field a dark elf dreadlord with the crown of command, pendant of khaine, whip of agony and full mundane armour on a Cold One and you've got possibly the best hand to hand combat character in the game. For around 270 points, you have a character who is has weapon skll 7, leadership 10 with stubborn and immune to psychology, initiative 8, 5 attacks at S5 and AP with hatred and a 1+ armour save followed by an inverse ward save ,
What gives him the 5th attack? The whip? If so, how does that work if he is using a shield?
The Whip has additional attack and armour piercing special rules, and only takes one hand to use.
Setomidor wrote:I'm surprised that noone mentioned the regular Dark Elf Spearmen. 6 points for M5, WS4, I5, Light Armour, Spear, Ld8 and Hatred is just sick compared to most other armies. They even can take magic banners!
True I would have been surpirsed if noone mentioned them too, they can't get unnoticed.
kristo wrote:3) 40-60 warriors(standrad of discipline anvil tarpit duty)
'And lo, he shall rule with a dark hand and his shadow shall touch uppon every land.'
Single combat I await
My shadow brings them fear
The spikes upon my chariot
Will grind them when they're near...
Single combat I await
My shadow brings them fear
The spikes upon my chariot
Will grind them when they're near...
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Underway
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Red... wrote:Valid point - but the throwing out of 'S7 = autokill versus chariots' rule more than makes up for the loss of the flee reaction imo. In 7th ed the fact that most armies took an anti-chariot S7 sweeper of some sort (e.g. High Elf noble on flying steed with starlance, dark elf master on dark pegasus with caledor's bane, etc) made chariots an auto-drop for me.
Dyvim Tvar wrote:The problem I have with stupidity these days is inability to flee. It used to be the case that you could charge with a chariot and then flee if the chariot ended up in a position to be charged in turn. No longer an option under 8th Ed rules. They are still good, just not as good as they used to be.
I almost never charge with chariots alone any more, steadfast has seen to that. So that means I rarely have chariots in a position to be charged at least in the initial strokes of the game. Also the introduction of the casualties being take from the back rank means the the chariots are often the target of many attacks back. Combo charging with a unit is quite frankly the only way to have them survive against anything substantial IMHO.