Magic lore discussion

[Demetrius]

So, everyone knows that Shadow is considered the best lore to take for a Dark Elf army. It is easy to see why, plenty of hexes that assist our troops in combat, a template that helps remove low initiative models/ monsters/ warmachines, and to top it off it has the best augment in the game which just so happens to synergise perfectly with our multi attack/ high leadership troops. But everyone already knows that.

I am very curious to see how many people on this forum still use the Shadow lore personally, both in relaxed and tournament environments.

For myself, I have largely abandoned Shadow. In the last 18 months, I only took it to one tournament, and in 6 games I only managed to cast Mindrazor on any meaningful combat once, and my Mindrazored Black Guard failed to kill the enemy Black Dragon. So I have found it is less reliable than you think.

My main issue with Shadow is that it is boring and predictable, which leads to a massive hit on comp scores if you take it (I play with panel judged soft comp). I dont think it is necassarily worth the comp hit either.

This made me explore other lores. Death worked ok, and Dark and Metal are still pretty great lores (in fact Metal is great because of the hordes of Monsterous Cav that are hitting the table these days). My favourite has been fire though. Flaming Sword is such an underrated spell (it equals win with Cold Ones), Flame Cage is amazing, and 2d6 Fireball is pretty great for a 10+ spell (easy on a level 4). Flame Storm and Piercing Bolts have their moments too.

So anyway, I want to know your real life experiances. Do you find you are still defaulting back to Shadow Magic, or have you branched out to the other lores which are realistically still very good when you build your list around the lore?

[Dalamar]

I haven't used Shadow in what feels like forever.

For me it simply has too high casting values, aside from the couple first spells.

For me Magic has to complement the rest of the army, fill the niche where your units lack. In my case most of the time that's breaking through high armor saves department.

This my lores of choice are often Dark (super easy to cast, no bad spell, two spells that completely ignore armor) and Metal (hard to cast, but coupled with Dark the extra dice can be used for it, amazing against heavy armor and has a few helpful toys like Enchanted Blades (you really want these or Flaming Sword if you're facing ethereals) or Glittering Robe. Spearelves with 3+ save are pretty handy

[Killerk]

I haven't useing shadow for almost 2 years, same as Dalamar, it's dark and metal for me, for the same reasons.

[Miasma]

I don't use Lore of Shadow as I feel that my list doesn't have enough attacks to fully make full use of the lore, I prefer to use Death or Dark Magic myself and mitigate the shorter ranges with a Dark Pegasus and Focus Familiar

[Tyrannus deathbringer]

In small games fire performs well for me.

I find it complements our ranged units well, and puts pressure on the opponent early in the game.

[Gwii2510]

Im toying with the idea of fire+Dark magic

[Dalamar]

My only issue with fire is that it's S4 across the board. If your army is tooled with some high Strength units (Executioners or Cold One Knights come to mind) Fire should do fine.

[Gwii2510]

I've posted my idea in the Armylist forum, I hope it will work out fine.

[Tyrannus deathbringer]

My only issue with fire is that it's S4 across the board. If your army is tooled with some high Strength units (Executioners or Cold One Knights come to mind) Fire should do fine.

Yes, I find fire lacking as a singular lore for this reason, except in smaller games, ~1000pts.

For medium/larger games it is a great back up mage lore i.e. Lv1/2 with ToF.

[Noble korhedron]

Eh, I'm Empire so I'm not sure how Lores stack up for me versus you guys. Obviously I have no option for Dark magic, but I think Shadow is useful for the de-buffs it provides. Failing that I mainly take light, to buff my own units.

Fire for me is mainly a fire support lore, and Death would be useful if I could have armoured wizards like those poncey Asur!! Without my wizards being more survivable, Death isn't really much of an option for me, so the Lores I mainly pick from are Shadow, Light, Life, Fire and Beasts.

[Omnichron]

In tournaments I use shadow, and I like metal or dark as a secondary lore.

The reason I go for shadow, isn't really the mindrazor (As most tournaments I join have an ETC restriction or something close to it). It's really the multitude of great spells in that lore as well as the range. I can keep my lord (Supreme sorceress) safe, all the way back in her bunker with lifetaker and get those debuffs out to make my forces survive against the odds. I'm actually addicted to shadow lore, and miss it all the time when I don't take it... even those times I play with WoC or VC, and it's not because of the mindrazor.

The reason for the metal lore, is simply that the meta has changed to an excess of heavy armored foes. While I WANT to use dark magic all the time, I realize quite often that my lists lacks armor punchers. If I got for a lot of shooting and multiple attacks, I take shadow and metal. If I have some armor punchers, I go for shadow and dark magic.

[Noble korhedron]

In tournaments I use shadow, and I like metal or dark as a secondary lore.

The reason I go for shadow, isn't really the mindrazor (As most tournaments I join have an ETC restriction or something close to it). It's really the multitude of great spells in that lore as well as the range. I can keep my lord (Supreme sorceress) safe, all the way back in her bunker with lifetaker and get those debuffs out to make my forces survive against the odds. I'm actually addicted to shadow lore, and miss it all the time when I don't take it... even those times I play with WoC or VC, and it's not because of the mindrazor.

The reason for the metal lore, is simply that the meta has changed to an excess of heavy armored foes. While I WANT to use dark magic all the time, I realize quite often that my lists lacks armor punchers. If I got for a lot of shooting and multiple attacks, I take shadow and metal. If I have some armor punchers, I go for shadow and dark magic.

By "armour punchers", you mean things like Executioners and Witch Elves?

[Omnichron]

By "armour punchers", you mean things like Executioners and Witch Elves?

Cold one knights, executioners, hydra and different flying pegasus builds that has S5+

Witch Elves are one of the massive damage units I use all the time, but they will absolutely get slaughtered the day they meet skullcrushers and don't have the mindrazor on them. The BG isn't enough either with S4 and AP imo.

[Red...]

I tried using Shadow a couple of times near the start, but always struggled with it (failed to get critical spells off at the right moment or got spells that were basically useless - i.e. spells that involved initiative tests against I5 dominant armies such as wood elves, high elves, dark elves and warriors of chaos - so I quit and started using metal instead (love the armour munching spells, but more so glittering robe (dark elf infantry with 3+ saves (or 2+ versus shooting if corsairs), along with 1+ save chariots are just mean), blades of aiban (almost impossible to fail to hit with hatred and great for killing ethereal foes) and of course final transmutation (not only does it crunch through elites and hordes alike, but it also ruins horde armies games for them because of the 12" stupidity bubble it inflicts). Once I was more used to 8th ed, I tried shadow again, this time with great success. But in the one game I used it in it bored the ever living s...tuff out of me and so I haven't used it since. It's just way too one dimensional and predictable to be any fun. My two cents on it.

For other armies, I think that light looks incredible (ASF foes terrify us poor dark elves) and life is well known as possibly the strongest lore in the game (although it's not quite so bad if you know how to crack it - hint, dispel throne of vines and dwellers below at all costs, be less concerned about anything else). Lore of beasts in a beastmen army can be very very strong, purely because of their default spell. If that gets cast on a unit of Bestigors, they become T5 and S5(7) - very hard indeed to take down, and because its the default spell, you can cast it as many times each magic phase as you have casters.

[Noble korhedron]

Hmm, interesting points, Red...

P.S.: Liking the new forum, but I miss the portal page!

[Setomidor]

I've actually done it the other way, in the beginning I mostly ran Death, but lately I've been trying out Shadow more and more.

I've found that (at least previously) Death is a great compliment to armies with what Omnichron refers to as Armour Pounchers; Execs, Hydras, Knights, etc. Doom and Darkness is just a great spell to complement shock-and-awe troops, and Snipes are/were a great way of getting rid of the general or the BSB to remove their reroll for Steadfast. However, Magic Resistance is so common around here these days (many players have a 4++ on their BSB in a unit with MR(2) for a total of 2++ against Magic), Death has become significantly weaker.

As Demetrius said in his initial post, it's not very surprising that Shadow complements our high I, WS and Hatred very nicely. However, Mindrazor isn't the only thing that makes this Lore so great and Enfeebling Foe is one of my absolute favourite spells in the whole game. It's practially +D3T and +D3AS merged into one, which is the perfect boon for Elves! Pit of Shades is a great tool to deal with the menace of Chimaerae, Hydras, Hellcannons, Dragons, Ogres, you name it, and most armies (bar dragon-less High Elves?) have something with a low I.

In general I think you have to judge a Lore not by it's best spell, but rather by its second (or possibly third) best spell. The real killer spells (read Mindrazor, Hellgate, or Flame Cage) will most often be dispelled unless you roll IF (which is considerably harder with 5 dice than 6), so that leaves your second best spell to actually do the work. However, since you can't expect to roll both two best spells of a Lore every time, often the spell that gets through is what would be seen as the third best one. This is why Fire does not really appeal to me; it doesn't have enough good spells to make sure that the spell I can get through is actually something useful. Also, in the specific case of Fire, Fireball is probably the second best spell during the early turns of the game (after Flame Cage) while Flaming Sword might be the best spell during mid-game when troops have committed to combat. Conversely, Fireball is usually quite weak during mid-game (while Cage is still good), and Flaming Sword is less important during early turns (unless you brought a single big shooty unit, which is uncommon). This means that unless you get both Cage and Flaming Sword, the set of useful spells during any phase of the game might be even smaller. Hell, if most enemy troops are in CC then Flaming Sword might be the only spell you can attempt to cast at all, and it will most likely be dispelled.

This is also why I like playing lists with dual Lvl4 wizards, or a Lvl4 with a Lvl1 Metal or Fire sidekick. Between the two wizards, you will probably have enough good spells to ensure that whatever is the second best spell is still something very good, regardless of the opposition and during all phases of the game. You're also considerably more likely to get those two killer spells if you roll for different lores, since you most likely can do more swaps (for example, swapping one spell for Pit of Shades on a Shadow Sorc and another for Purple Sun on a Death Sorc if you're up against Ogres).

To conclude, In my specific case I currenly run a Lvl4 Shadow and a Lvl1 Metal sidekick. I'm rather afraid of lists with 1+AS and/or MC spam, so if up against those I will have both Searing Doom (threatening the armoured units themselves) and Pit of Shades (threatening support units such as the Steam tank or Chimaerae) and I will focus on these spells during the first turns of the game. Once we reach combat these two spells are likely less useful, so instead I will focus on the other three spells from Shadow, and I'm guaranteed to have at least one of the good buff spells (Mindrazor, Withering or Enfeebling Foe) to complement Miasma.

[Noble korhedron]

Hmm, v. good points, @Setomidor. What would you say are the best Lores for Empire....?

[Setomidor]

Hands down, Light. It just combines so well with the rest of the army, and if you bring a long a supporting Light Wizard, a Hurricanum and a War Altar you can have a tremendous magic phase. Two Banishments is golden, especially since you can cast the S5 one first, and force your opponent to either let it through (and risk having the S6 one go through at IF), or dispell it and suffer more damages from the second one. Speed of Light is just lovely with Halberdiers, especially if you keep the Hurricanum close. Suddenly you hit him on 2+ while WS4 or lower just hits you on 5+. Timewarp can either be used to give ASF to units in combat (Halberdiers or Demis probably), or you can just cast it on the Steam Tank for dubble the movement...

[Noble korhedron]

That's it, time to buy a wizard wagon! Luckily my FLGS manages to discount pretty much all G.W's prices. Great thing about being Irish is that we're not at saturation point yet, so they have to give better terms to the FLGS's!!

BTW, did you mean the Luminark instead of the Hurricanum? You know the Luminark is the Lore of Light and the Hurricanum is Heavens, right....?

[Demetrius]

Thanks for the replies guys, I am glad that many of you have had success with different lores.

I definitely agree with the lore you choose having to fill a niche in your list, which is why Metal can be good to deal with those high armour units. In my next list I write, I'm looking at having a level 4 Fire with dagger, and a level 2 Metal with a scroll. Theoretically it should cover all bases of horde control and armour removal, with the added bonus of my favourite spell Flaming Sword!

Setomidor is right about the lore needing to have multiple good spells. I find that a single level 4 with 4 spells is not enough, because the opponent can easily prioritise what they want to dispel. I always try and take a wide range of spells so they don't have easy choices to make, and hence make mistakes which is what wins your games. Having a selection of different spells also give you the opportunity to always have something useful to cast, rather than having useless augments and hexes in the first couple of turns, or useless direct damage spells mid-end game.

[Setomidor]

BTW, did you mean the Luminark instead of the Hurricanum? You know the Luminark is the Lore of Light and the Hurricanum is Heavens, right....?

Yeah, but the Hurricanum has better inherit abilities (+1 PD and +1 To-hit) so I think it's a better pick than the Luminark (1DD and 6+ Ward). Put the channeling staff on one of the Wizards and you'll have three channellers (one with +1), and a free PD from the Hurricanum. This should give you about 2 extra dice per magic phase.

[Noble korhedron]

BTW, did you mean the Luminark instead of the Hurricanum? You know the Luminark is the Lore of Light and the Hurricanum is Heavens, right....?

Yeah, but the Hurricanum has better inherit abilities (+1 PD and +1 To-hit) so I think it's a better pick than the Luminark (1DD and 6+ Ward). Put the channeling staff on one of the Wizards and you'll have three channellers (one with +1), and a free PD from the Hurricanum. This should give you about 2 extra dice per magic phase.

So what, I should still take Life but with the Hurricanum as a support unit....?

[Setomidor]

Light, yes.

[Red...]

Light on an empire army is just scary. I depend quite heavily on my Dark Elves getting to strike first in a lot of combats and when we don't, it hurts. A horde unit of empire troops striking first can really ruin the day of a single wound, T3 5+ armour save army like ours.

[Persuader]

In friendly games my regular opponent lets me take any one of the 7 other lores
We are both really tired of shadow. So in those games were I can take any lore I want.
I take Heavens. (good buffs and I love Comet & Chain Lightning early on)

Against my regular Chaos opponent I always take Shadow because I just need it.
I need the hexes and buffs.
I play infantry heavy, running 2x21WE, 50Warriors, 24RXB's & 30 Corsairs.
Sadly Fire or Death or even Metal can't bring enough punch in the phases I need my magic the most.
When you're up against 24 Chaos MoT HW & Shield warriors, Gorebeast Chariots (T6), Hellcanons, Knights, Chosen, ...
(you get the picture)
Shadow always wins me my games whether its because I can minimize the dmg I take (-D3 S) or enables me to inflict a gazzilion wounds (-D3 T).

But as said before when you take Hydras, Executioners, Cok's Shadow brings less synergy than metal.
And I agree Shadow is pretty boring.
I like my LvL4 Fire w/ Lifetaker on Pegasus doh.
This build I like to use against High Elves.