New Book - units and characters that will never be used

[Forbrannir]

Before I tirade I should tell you I have a snake themed army with snakes on banners, bases as tattoos and the occasional forked tong.

Imagine how happy I am when I see the Bloodwrack Medusa. Imagine how disappointed I am when I see its rules. 'Nuff said.

More controversially, I feel the hydra is now dead. With the loss of the beast master's attacks and the Hydra's own attacks going down as it loses wounds it really can't break units anymore. The only thing it has over the K-beasty is its regeneration but I'll be running life anyway so it doesn't even have that. Even if I didn't, a wily opponent will kill the Hydra in one turn before it makes saves.

Really, a lament for the snakyness. Knew I should have gone for a five headed betentacled sea creature thing that doesn't look like it can swim theme.

[Clockwork]

Kharabidyss' don't swim: water surges around them in fright.

[Calisson]

Malus is there friend

Oh yes, I missed Malus - wasn't drunk at that time, need to check my glasses.

You did not mention about the Beastmaster on his chariot scroungerunner?
A BS7 T7 shot, babysitting a K-beast which biggest drawback is asking for more attacks, threatening combined charge, that should not sound too bad?
First turn, monster protects chariot against cannonballs (BRB p.113). Then move forwards, chariot on protected side of monster, and shoot.
When necessary, charge with both. If chariot killed, beastmaster joins any nearby unit and still deny VPs.

[HERO]

Malus is there friend

Oh yes, I missed Malus - wasn't drunk at that time, need to check my glasses.

You did not mention about the Beastmaster on his chariot scroungerunner?
A BS7 T7 shot, babysitting a K-beast which biggest drawback is asking for more attacks, threatening combined charge, that should not sound too bad?
First turn, monster protects chariot against cannonballs (BRB p.113). Then move forwards, chariot on protected side of monster, and shoot.
When necessary, charge with both. If chariot killed, beastmaster joins any nearby unit and still deny VPs.

Meh, give it a shot. I'm not seeing it money well spent.

[Scyloc]

Assassins should have had Lokhirs Daring Leap ability (The ability to attack any character in the opposing unit despite base to base contact.) I also think they should have gone up to 130-135 Pts and have had an inherent 4++ dodge ward save.

That would have made for a very interesting and assassin-like character, with some interesting uses, without being overpowered.

[Askador]

Assassins should have had Lokhirs Daring Leap ability (The ability to attack any character in the opposing unit despite base to base contact.) I also think they should have gone up to 130-135 Pts and have had an inherent 4++ dodge ward save.

That would have made for a very interesting and assassin-like character, with some interesting uses, without being overpowered.

I like this idea much more then the recent "Surprise! Here i am now kill me pls" concept.

[HERO]

Assassins should have had Lokhirs Daring Leap ability (The ability to attack any character in the opposing unit despite base to base contact.) I also think they should have gone up to 130-135 Pts and have had an inherent 4++ dodge ward save.

That would have made for a very interesting and assassin-like character, with some interesting uses, without being overpowered.

I like this idea much more then the recent "Surprise! Here i am now kill me pls" concept.

Also known as the Lictor syndrome.

[Dalamar]

If all assasins had the shadowblade hidden rule they'd be awesome at assassinating hero level characters.
Run a unif of shades into the enemy and reveal assassin. If shades die beforehand, assassin is not wasted.

[Forbrannir]

I still say assassins are useful. not as good as last book by any means but they can give you an edge in combat, keep your opponent guessing and a bit of creativity can make them do awesome stuff. Cloak of twilight with 5 attacks and ManBane (never understood why it was called that, you'd think it would be OrcBane or something ) Vs ogres.
Black dragon egg, use breath weapon on the corner of withered WoC.
Yesterday, I charged one with glittering scales into 40 high elf spearmen and he kept them busy for 4 turns and killed their BSB by himself.
Alright, you could do those 3 things with a Master or Dreadlord but the don't have "hidden" and don't they really have better things to be doing anyway?

[Jvh792]

The more I think about our new book, the more screwed I think we got.
I look at the high elves.
heavy cav core
heavy cav with 2 atks
Flying monsters that give auto debuffs in combat
WS 6 greatweapons with a ward vs shooting AND 2 ATTACKS
Flying chariots
50pt Eagle redirectors
Their sisters unit doesn't suck huge balls
their guard unit is unkillable
ever present ward saves
banner than blanks an entire army.

what did I miss?

[OldCrow]

So I guess you're just going to ignore all the good stuff we got that they didn't. Like that whole re-rolling 1s to wound and S6 being an unreal power boost? Or our access to 1+ saves through strictly mundane gear? Or if that isn't good enough for you, our viability as both an MSU or more traditional build army?

[Vampire1812]

If we got the same kind of toys then why have an army called Dark Elves? What would the point be. I think our book is very powerful and it was correctly balanced where it needed to be. There are a few what were they thinking but that's the case with every book. Gone are the days of people assuming you were a power hungry butt much because you liked the Druchii. Honestly Jvh792 I don't see how you can be upset unless you only liked the Druchii because they were arguably one of most broken douche laden armies played. Kinda like all those salty tears Daemon players shed when they got their new book. However those that loved Daemons because they loved Daemons found a way to play them and love them. If you love the Druchii you will do the same. There are so many great possibilities with the new book. Go explore.

[Dalamar]

The more I think about our new book, the more screwed I think we got.
I look at the high elves.
heavy cav core

Fast cav characters

heavy cav with 2 atks

Heavy cav with S6 and fear (and S4 mounts with 2A)

Flying monsters that give auto debuffs in combat

Not flying monsters that delete one of the key abilities in 8th edition (BSB re-roll)

WS 6 greatweapons with a ward vs shooting AND 2 ATTACKS

WS 6 with 4+ ward in close combat and 2 attacks! that will never hit anything worse than 5+ (nurgle DP) or wound anything worse than 5+ (a lot of stuff)

Flying chariots

Low rider with S7 bolt thrower

50pt Eagle redirectors

You got me there, eagles are awesome, almost as good as our harpies used to be. At the same time they eat into their rare points, and everything else they have in rare is better.

Their sisters unit doesn't suck huge balls

Neither does ours. Theirs is a no-brainers, ours requires skill and can stop the worst monstrosities your opponent can throw at you.

their guard unit is unkillable

Hardly, witches plow through them.

ever present ward saves

that requires a strong magic phase

banner than blanks an entire army.

and that army still wins with them.

[Jvh792]

Honestly, I'd survive with all of it if I had cheap redirectors like I used to. 55 points to 75 points is over a 33% increase with NO increased performance. AND they cause panic. Sooooo decreased performance increased price. Cool.
With our army being soooo expensive and soooo squishy, I feel forced to take lore of life. Not that it's not good, but mono-build is boring. I play tyranids in 40k. I'm tired of mono-builds.

[Dalamar]

Have you looked at our dark riders?

They don't die when they redirect, they just rally and do it all over again.

[Jvh792]

They can, but a smart opponent will just not charge them because they will have to be at least the basic amount of movement away from the unit to have a good enough chance of getting away to make it worth the risk.
With that much space, you just march and wheel around. You run out of room pretty quick.

[Dalamar]

I recommend you read up on the double flee on these very forums.

[Jvh792]

link for me plz?

[Dalamar]

Here you go

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?p=853925#top

[Forbrannir]

I think Jvh792's main error (just some constructive criticism ) is that he didn't mention the stuff we got that high elves can't compare with like;
A cheep mount with flying we can give to a master,
A spell that basically said it's slightly better than soul quench,
A giant monster with strength 7 that comes in for a mere 80 skaven slaves,
A core unit that dish out 4 poisoned attacks each,
The 1+ mundane saves dalamar mentioned,
You'd agree that RXB and sea dragon cloaks are mundane gear that every other race cries its self to sleep over,
The fact that all our monsters can stand for themselves in combat while their birds of various hue can't,
Kouran is pretty kick ass if you ask me,
Black guard re-roll to hit everything,
Assassins that hide in units (and by extension shadowblade),
Shadestar,
A big cauldron on wheels that give all kinds of benefits as well as protecting our six attacking crazy strength hag whose only floor is not wearing armour,
Us negating their re-rolls to hit with ASF and keeping ours through hatred,
And Boobs.

If that isn't enough to make a good list out of I don't know what is and that's just the main stuff. Lots more to add.

[Calisson]

See in this thread New Dark Elf book illustrated the equivalent HE rant at our new army book. Nicely illustrated.

Overall, our book is too new to make definitive statements, but it seems that the two AB compete at similar level, HE being more defensive, DE being more offensive.

[Jvh792]

Ok. Here's my problem with all of that. I thought the charge worked like this.
You declare your charge,
Your opponent can measure, then declare a reaction.
Once reaction is declared, lets say he flees,
Then I roll my distance, he rolls his distance, and you use the math to see if he catches you.
That way the charge is resolved before the models are moved.
That's how they do it at my LGS.
Can anyone pass me a Gamesworkshop article explaining that's not the way to do it? I just want proof instead of having to say, uhhh found it on the internets...

[Dalamar]

That's not how it's done.

You measure the distance (at any time really) and declare a charge
If the target declares a flee reaction, you roll the distance and move the fleeing unit immediately
You measure the new distance
Then you roll the charging unit's charge range.

[Calisson]

Actually:
- You can measure distance at any time, no limit.
- During the charge declaration sub-phase, you do NOT move a single model before you have declared the LAST charge.
- During the charge declaration sub-phase, if you charge a unit and that unit flees, the fleeing unit DOES move immediately. The charging unit may keep same target, or pass a Ld test and charge someone else (once).

- ONCE all charges have been declared and all flee reactions have been completed, you start rolling charging dices.
- A charge is a success if M+2D6 > distance, where "distance" is the closest distance, measured like a bird's flight (over impassable terrain...) (take 2 best of 3D6 if charging unit has swiftstride).
- If the charge is a success, move the charging unit in contact of the target (even if the actual distance to move is largely superior to M+2D6) (even if the target was fleeing).
- If the target was fleeing, it is destroyed on the spot, and the charging unit is allowed a Ld test to reform.

[Jvh792]

Just got back from a road trip, super tired. I'll check the wording in the rule book tomorrow.
Another question.
When I flee, I measure from the front of the fleeing units bases, flee them back whatever I roll on 2d6, stopping them (at the front of their bases again, that same 2d6 away. Which means I essentially also subtract whatever the depth of the fleeing unit is, since it is stick that back.
With this then, it is theoretically possible to end a flee move closer to your opponent than when you started.