Dark Elves Winners and Losers

[Jossy]

I've done a basic breakdown of what's benefited and what has not in the new book if any are interested.
I won't repost it here, so just follow the link

http://plastickrak.blogspot.co.nz/2013/10/dark-elves-winners-and-losers.html

[MichaelMac]

I only disagree with your opinion of Corsairs. 4+ armor, 2A with all the DE combat prowess + Wildform, Soulblight makes these pretty decent core troops. Sure they aren't 6pt spearmen...

Also, jury is out on the Bloodwrack Shrine. Some people believe (pre-experience) that the shrine hold some promise. Call me 39% convinced but I am going to try one out before I give up on it because every new book there is one unit that is initially considered completely stupid and later becomes a tournament mainstay. Could that me the Bloodwrack?

[Dalamar]

Bloodwrack? It let me win a combat against phoenix guard with loremaster with my executioners today.

It's T6, it soaked up attacks from 6 phoenix guard (which would've likely killed around 4 execs, instead they totalled a single wound on the shrine)
Additionally the -1 ld made them test on -4... sadly they succeeded

[Elodin]

I'm glad he mentioned Warlocks, it's a great unit even outside of casting spells and I think it'll be a staple in my army.

He did make me take a second look at Hellebron and I have to admit she's pretty great looking. Making it almost impossible to bring a Lord level wizard outside of a higher points value is a pretty big downside, but she's so strong in close combat it makes up for it, as well as the buffs she gives a group of Witch Elves.

I hate to admit that Witch Elves are good because, though I like the models $60 a box is crazy. That being said I'll probably cave and buy 3 anyway.

Overall it was a nice write up.

[Askador]

I only disagree with your opinion of Corsairs. 4+ armor, 2A with all the DE combat prowess + Wildform, Soulblight makes these pretty decent core troops. Sure they aren't 6pt spearmen...

Also, jury is out on the Bloodwrack Shrine. Some people believe (pre-experience) that the shrine hold some promise. Call me 39% convinced but I am going to try one out before I give up on it because every new book there is one unit that is initially considered completely stupid and later becomes a tournament mainstay. Could that me the Bloodwrack?

I agree here. 2 Attacks with Armor 4+ against: 3 Attacks, Frenzy and poison. Frenzy is, for me, more negative then positiv. So in my Opinion Corsairs are on par with the Witches and one of the winners in this Book.

[Clockwork]

Shades. They get their great weapons back. Need I say more? One of the best scouts in the game just got better thanks to ASF, I6 and great weapons on top of the shenanigans they could already pull.

I read this and got really excited. Sadly, its a typo and Shades are (only) I5.

EDIT: I also disagree with the assesment of Corsairs; but unrelated to that, I don't believe that the Scaly Skin save of Glittering Robes stacks (much to my Saurus' despair).

[BollaertN]

I'm confused by your suggesting the Kharibdyss needs a FAQ - the special rule where they get to add another D6 hits only applies if all of their normal attacks hit a single model. So there is no question to where wounds are allocated.

[Mrdark12]

I think most of this review is bang on (I tried a game today, so at least have some hands on experience). The new Hydra is a totally different bag of tricks, it got more and less durable at the same time, easier to kill outright, harder to kill with bug bites (as 20 GW dwarf warriors found to their horror).

I disagree entirely with the Corsairs, I think they are the winners for our core, I know that alot of people see Witches as the top dog (biatch?), yeah they dish out a load of attacks, yeah they are fast yeah they have poison, but they have no protection, none, nadda, zipp.
if you give them a CoB then sure, they get a buff, but thats making your 300-400pts unit more like 450-600pts unit.

Corsairs however, have just as good a stat line, 4+AS and AHW at the same points, they won't kill your mage for looking at them funny, and frankly I like the models better (Last point is personal preference). but I think Corsairs are the better choice, stick a Master in their to add combat, stick in a Sup-Sorc to turn up the magic (without her being filled with holes), Corsairs are, however, not dagger fuel.

[Jossy]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I still still think the Corsairs lose out somewhat in this book. Although they are good, and may play a role I looked at them from this angle:
They have a 4+ armour save, but they are still toughness 3
Comparing them to Witch Elves, they lose out on 1 attack, ITP, and poison, but gain 4+ armour save and have no negative effects from Frenzy
However, there is more potential in the Witch Elves unit with Witch Brew &/or CoB

Looking from the perspective that they are still competing with Dark Riders, or superior ranged troops in the form of Rxbm, and the greater potential of a Witch Elf unit, I do think they lose out in the 8th edition book, where as in the last edition book they where the obvious core choice to make.

I've changed the typo for the Shades. thanks for pointing that out Clockwork. Imagine I6...
Also I think you may be right with regards to the glittering robe.

[Cold73]

When looking at strong and weak units there are several ways to do it.
1) Looking at the sheer number of attacks...and the sheer number of kills it can get off on a frontal charge.
2) Looking at combat potential in all kind of scenarios.

In catagory 1, Witch Elves win...no doubt about it.
But against opponents who know what they are doing... or you made a tiny mistake in your deployment....your witch elves can be flanked charged.... loose combat by 1 or 2...and loose all of there combat potential....which is a HUGE blow to them..... loosing not 1 but 2 frenzy attacks....Now you have frenzied ladies with 2 S3 attacks....

Place a unit of Corsairs in the same position...and sure they might do less damage...but will also gain less wounds..... and if they do loose combat....so what...their combat potential has not been harmed too much.

[nevaenuffbass]

Corsairs and witches are very different units IMO.

Have a unit of 10-20 witches, and if the en focuses to much effort into killing them, something more expensive isn't getting targeted. If they ignore them, witches can rip through something without any need for a spell buff (thanks to frenzy attacks and poison).

Corsairs (AHW) probably make poor small units. But have 20-40 of them with some ranks and they'll be more durable than most of our army, thanks to having armour. They'd be better for pinning something in place while it is counter charged. They also do well with the multitude of magic buffs that dark elves have access to.

Different horses for different courses.

Witch elves "won" in the new book. They are now core. Corsairs (AHW) probably lost a little compared to the last book with no sea serpent standard, but in the context of the new book with 6pt spearmen have become a pretty viable core choice.

My 2c.

[xxvaderxx]

Corsairs and witches are very different units IMO.

Have a unit of 10-20 witches, and if the en focuses to much effort into killing them, something more expensive isn't getting targeted. If they ignore them, witches can rip through something without any need for a spell buff (thanks to frenzy attacks and poison).

Corsairs (AHW) probably make poor small units. But have 20-40 of them with some ranks and they'll be more durable than most of our army, thanks to having armour. They'd be better for pinning something in place while it is counter charged. They also do well with the multitude of magic buffs that dark elves have access to.

Different horses for different courses.

Witch elves "won" in the new book. They are now core. Corsairs (AHW) probably lost a little compared to the last book with no sea serpent standard, but in the context of the new book with 6pt spearmen have become a pretty viable core choice.

My 2c.

I actually am of the reverse opinion. Small units of T3 no sv will be lucky to get into combat at all and not be shot down by even the lowest amount of shooting out there, and at 130+ points, on this book in particular, that is too expensive to be disposable.
On the other hand 10 wounds on 4+ save will be more likely to reach combat and survive it (even while flanking t3 no save is likely to get wiped by the unit they are flanking).

Front charging they both have their uses, one as raw damage dealing the other as an anvil. This is why i like corsairs better, in an already low model count army, they are more resilient and flexible at the price of killing power. There are other units that do killing better than the witches, so they are rather redundant.

[Drek]

A T3 4AS anvil for 11 points? That's a hefty price tag, and you are going to need to bring a lot of them because they will die in droves.

We still lack an anvil in a game that is designed around them.

Edit: Actually, BG are a more viable anvil with the size restriction gone. They are only four points more than corsairs, and a better choice. Better to use them and use WE as hammers.

[xxvaderxx]

A T3 4AS anvil for 11 points? That's a hefty price tag, and you are going to need to bring a lot of them because they will die in droves.

We still lack an anvil in a game that is designed around them.

The price does not make much difference considering our only other option is only 2 points less with one less armor save. Sure, the best anvil we have are swords. Having said that they are nowhere near as versatile as corsairs and at affordable lvls we are talking 250ish points, it is only a 5 model difference with worst save and worst combat. I rather get the versatility. Its a pity, but the only reason to take anything other than corsairs is to make a dagger/anvil unit of swords, and even then the difference is rather marginal.

It is true we lack the true anvil, thou we can play MSU better than any other army out there i think. Including 3 hydras for flanking and using a lvl 4 life and lvl 2 with mind razor (which we can now handpick), makes us a rather formidable opponent i believe. Im already envisioning 3 blocks 3 hydras 2 wizards (as mentioned above) and 4 throwers to become our standard list.

[Vampire1812]

You cant hand pick Mind Razor. Re-read the tome.

[xxvaderxx]

You cant hand pick Mind Razor. Re-read the tome.

Yeah my bad, still you can go either dark power and words of pain for the lvl 2.

[Jossy]

Thing is about small units of corsairs, I would rather take units of 5-6 Dark Riders...

[xxvaderxx]

Thing is about small units of corsairs, I would rather take units of 5-6 Dark Riders...

I would not, to be honest units of 5 fast cav i just see them as free points. BS shooting is terrible in this game, that being said, this kind of units are the exact thing they can clear with no fuss. For me to field a small unit of 5 wounds, it either has to be extremely cheap (aka under 60 points), have 2+ armor save, or t5+. Im not feeding free points to my opponent otherwise.

Think about it from our perspective, one round of shooting from our 4 bolthrowers, can pretty much clear the board of all the 5 wounds light units and fetch you some considerable easy points. Small light units of anything, simply don't make sense in 8th edition. They are too fragile, cant cause considerable damage from ranged attacks and can not go into combat against blocks. We are tempted because we have xbows, but think about it this way, you fire 5 of them into a block, cause a few wounds (less than 5), next turn they get evaporated from small arms fire or a magic missile. You achieved nothing, he got the points from your fast cav.

[Cold73]

Ah...but now you are thinking about standard armies and standard tactics...like Warriors of Chaos...simply move forward and smash.
Dark Elves in my opinion should be a pair of finely crafted swords. Dark Elf anvils are way to weak and expensive. Dark Elfs need to cut...and cut deep...and that with loosing as little of the sharp edge of the sword as possible.

Dark Riders have many abilities..warmachine hunting is just one of them; but for me they are sacrificial units... making units charge so that the enemy line arrives on our side piece meal; redirecting...so that we can get flank or rear charges.... and if we face a shooty heavy army....I'll be more then happy to have them shoot at my Fast Cavalry then at my far more expensive troops...who i want to stay intact as long as possible. Never forget...1 lone Dark Rider is enough to send an entire horde of Savage Orcs on a wild goose chase.

[Dalamar]

Thing is about small units of corsairs, I would rather take units of 5-6 Dark Riders...

I would not, to be honest units of 5 fast cav i just see them as free points. BS shooting is terrible in this game, that being said, this kind of units are the exact thing they can clear with no fuss. For me to field a small unit of 5 wounds, it either has to be extremely cheap (aka under 60 points), have 2+ armor save, or t5+. Im not feeding free points to my opponent otherwise.

Think about it from our perspective, one round of shooting from our 4 bolthrowers, can pretty much clear the board of all the 5 wounds light units and fetch you some considerable easy points. Small light units of anything, simply don't make sense in 8th edition. They are too fragile, cant cause considerable damage from ranged attacks and can not go into combat against blocks. We are tempted because we have xbows, but think about it this way, you fire 5 of them into a block, cause a few wounds (less than 5), next turn they get evaporated from small arms fire or a magic missile. You achieved nothing, he got the points from your fast cav.

MSU players would disagree with you.

[xxvaderxx]

Thing is about small units of corsairs, I would rather take units of 5-6 Dark Riders...

I would not, to be honest units of 5 fast cav i just see them as free points. BS shooting is terrible in this game, that being said, this kind of units are the exact thing they can clear with no fuss. For me to field a small unit of 5 wounds, it either has to be extremely cheap (aka under 60 points), have 2+ armor save, or t5+. Im not feeding free points to my opponent otherwise.

Think about it from our perspective, one round of shooting from our 4 bolthrowers, can pretty much clear the board of all the 5 wounds light units and fetch you some considerable easy points. Small light units of anything, simply don't make sense in 8th edition. They are too fragile, cant cause considerable damage from ranged attacks and can not go into combat against blocks. We are tempted because we have xbows, but think about it this way, you fire 5 of them into a block, cause a few wounds (less than 5), next turn they get evaporated from small arms fire or a magic missile. You achieved nothing, he got the points from your fast cav.

MSU players would disagree with you.

They are welcome to fail all they want. Fast cav has no place in 8th edition. The only viable fast cav option in 8th edition are our warlocks and they are undercosted and come with a 4++ save, hardly representative of your standard fastcav unit.

Ah...but now you are thinking about standard armies and standard tactics...like Warriors of Chaos...simply move forward and smash.
Dark Elves in my opinion should be a pair of finely crafted swords. Dark Elf anvils are way to weak and expensive. Dark Elfs need to cut...and cut deep...and that with loosing as little of the sharp edge of the sword as possible.

Dark Riders have many abilities..warmachine hunting is just one of them; but for me they are sacrificial units... making units charge so that the enemy line arrives on our side piece meal; redirecting...so that we can get flank or rear charges.... and if we face a shooty heavy army....I'll be more then happy to have them shoot at my Fast Cavalry then at my far more expensive troops...who i want to stay intact as long as possible. Never forget...1 lone Dark Rider is enough to send an entire horde of Savage Orcs on a wild goose chase.

Not at all, they simply can not do what you are stating they can, small arms fire evaporates fast cav units and they tend to be less expensive and more versatile as well. Magic missiles do the same. And artillery will still target what they have to. Fast cav is simply too fragile and does not have the hitting and staying power to deal with anything other than other units of fascav, so why would i field them when small arms are cheaper, can take out fast cav before they do anything and plink away at blocks or runaway units?.

[T.D.]

I don't think "they are welcome to fail all they want" provides any evidence of your opinion. There are a number of v. experienced and international tournament class players who post on here, and who many times apply MSU.

There will always be disagreements on ways to play on this forum, but lets keep it civil.

[Setomidor]

They are welcome to fail all they want. Fast cav has no place in 8th edition. The only viable fast cav option in 8th edition are our warlocks and they are undercosted and come with a 4++ save, hardly representative of your standard fastcav unit.

I used to agree with this, and didn't use a single unit of fast cav as I couldn't see what they would give me that the Harpies could not. This changed quite abruptly about six months ago, when the WoC book was released. As you correctly point out they tend to die quickly against small arms fire and magic missiles, but all of a sudden the Meta game was packed to the brim with Warriors and Daemons (most often with Lore of Death), and neither of these armies have neither small arms fire nor magic missiles! Agains such opponents, Fast cav is worth their weight in gold, as you can redirect and force units like Skullcrushers to overrun into very unfavorable positions. The point to stress here is that in those kind of games, the Dark Riders _will_ die, that's what they are there for. If you can use 80pts to redirect 400pts of Crushers and get them into a position where you can hit them in the flank with something nasty, you win.

[Omnichron]

They are welcome to fail all they want. Fast cav has no place in 8th edition. The only viable fast cav option in 8th edition are our warlocks and they are undercosted and come with a 4++ save, hardly representative of your standard fastcav unit.

Strange how dark riders work perfectly well for me.

[xxvaderxx]

I don't think "they are welcome to fail all they want" provides any evidence of your opinion. There are a number of v. experienced and international tournament class players who post on here, and who many times apply MSU.

There will always be disagreements on ways to play on this forum, but lets keep it civil.

I do not intend to be "disrespectful" how ever i stand by what i said, the only fast cav/redirectors worth taking cost 50 points or less and they are few and far in between, otherwise you are hoping they dont bring small arms at all, and then hoping they fail their ld check, and then hoping you can position 2 of them (making them twice as expensive) so that you can outmaneuver your opponent, that is a lot of hoping. Warlocks work, because they are massively undercosted for what they do. Our book stresses this out in particular, why bring 60+ points of riders, when 70 points of 1 bolt thrower will clean them off the table in 1 turn, make its points back and annoy your opponent in the process. If we hand unlimited points or could may be rise them during the game like the undead (which they can not actually do, but this is just to prove the point) i might feel differently. If you were not able to redirect the charge, it would make them useful and make the game more interesting by forcing you to bring small arms to deal with them as well, would make things more varied, that is not 8th edition thou, may be 9th but not 8th.

Regarding tournaments, i dont really think Comp Fantasy counts, that is not the game that GW wrote and are after the fact biased alteration by amateur players/designers. I know it is not a popular opinion, but those are the facts.