The Scourgerunner

[Facemeltor]

Ive nothing to say about the rules, but iam interested in the meaning of beastmaster on scourgerunner (about 400 points with stuff)

[Calisson]

The scourge's fluff should be used as a guidance to understand what was intended with rules.

I imagine easily myself driving full speed a one-wheel chariot pulled by mad horses, keeping balance thanks to carefully coordinated movements with my mate crewmember,
moving to maximum distance AND shooting a huge bolt AND four crossbolts with the only two of us,
preparing to drag a huge monster towards us with the barbed harpoon, still maintining our balance on the single wheel chariot,
and, having missed to kill the beast, reloading in a hurry in order to stand and shoot (when merely standing is already a challenge) with the four crossbolts.
Adding one large bolt to the S&S reaction, that's really nothing for guys like us!

[Trax]

Harpoon = Bolt Thrower = Warmachine weapon.

That's where you make a mistake!
This oversimplification is wrong rulewise and even more mathematically (not every war machine weapon is a BT! Not every BT is a harpoon!).

If you want to use math symbology and remain accurate, I suggest:

BT is a warmachine => rules p.108-110 apply.
BT is listed in warmachine chapter => BT is a Warmachine weapon => rule p.109 apply to BT => BT cannot stand & shoot.
Harpoon = Bolt Thrower with many differences.
Here are two differences:
Harpoon is not mounted on a warmachine => p.108-110 are irrelevant.
Harpoon is not a weapon listed in warmachine chapter => rule p.109 is irrelevant.

Harpoon = Bolt Thrower with differences where those are made clear. That Stand and Shoot is allowed is not made clear, hence, no stand and shoot. This is not an oversimplification. I do account for all and every single rule we have at our disposal, you don't, your Slow to Fire - which applies since it is a BT (albeit with differences - *when mentioned*) falls under the table completely.

And as for harpoon not being a weapon listed in the warmachine chapter - that's where your mistake lies. It is listed since it is a bolt thrower. How would you know what rules to use for it? Where do you get them, you sure as heck mustn't get them from p.108-111, since it is not described there IYHO. So what does "this is a bolt thrower" tell you if not to apply the bolt thrower rules unless stated otherwise? And slow to fire and move or fire apply to all bolt throwers if you want it or not - and the harpoon *is* among them.

You don't wanna argue that doom divers and every other fancy-named weapon is not a weapon of the respective type, do you? Granted, it's seldom critical (at least in terms of charge reactions) since the unit type is different, but still, if you would argue that those weapons are not identical in terms of firing modes to the BRB rules, how would you know how to fire them? You use the rules form p.108-111 (or what they are exactly) - the same goes for all odd-named bolt throwers (like the harpoon) and for those the paragraph about slow to fire and move or fire count.

I don't accuse you of trying to cherrypick or anything btw, I know this is just a rule discussion for you, too

[Searinox Nagharha]

What have i started im glad tho that we are getting abit of info out of it. I'll most likely will still field 1. its the 'threat it has in my enemies eyes that makes it worth while for me (that and i just love the model )

I do hope they hurry with the FAQ tho. If I'd have to choose between 'no armor saves' and 's&s' I'd pick 'no armor saves'

@Facemeltor
If you subtrackt the cost of the Scrunner from the HBM hes only 150 (still more the a DL but still)
The biggest reason to him on the Scrunner would be his BS. Always hitting on 2+ is a big improvement.
Other then that you can have him babysit monsters givin them the +D3 attacks buff without gettin him into combat.

[Zenith]

Whether S&S is possible., why ever pay this hefty price for a mobile bolt thrower that, when using its movement, shoots even worde then a regular bolt. Just take 2 bolts instead of a overpriced sroengerunner (or wathever its called) its sounds german anyway.

[Calisson]

Harpoon = Bolt Thrower with differences where those are made clear.
That Stand and Shoot is allowed is not made clear, hence, no stand and shoot. This is not an oversimplification.
I do account for all and every single rule we have at our disposal, you don't, your Slow to Fire - which applies since it is a BT (albeit with differences - *when mentioned*) falls under the table completely.

Stand & Shoot needs not to be "allowed", it is the default rule. Only if there is clearly specified "slow to fire" is a unit denied S&S. You say that BT have slow to fire, taken from p.109 among warmachine rules, therefore harpoon has the same rule.
Do I have to understand that in your eyes, all rules p.108-111 apply to harpoon, unless expressely made clear they don't?

And as for harpoon not being a weapon listed in the warmachine chapter - that's where your mistake lies. It is listed since it is a bolt thrower. How would you know what rules to use for it? Where do you get them, you sure as heck mustn't get them from p.108-111, since it is not described there IYHO. So what does "this is a bolt thrower" tell you if not to apply the bolt thrower rules unless stated otherwise? And slow to fire and move or fire apply to all bolt throwers if you want it or not - and the harpoon *is* among them.

A harpoon is not exactly a bolt thrower, that's why it gets another name.
It rules are in the AB. Among the rule is Bolt Thrower, but not warmachine. So all rules p.111 apply unless superseded, no rule p.108-110 apply, that's simple and straightforwards.
If a harpoon is listed among the warmachine weapons, tell me what BRB page?

You don't wanna argue that doom divers and every other fancy-named weapon is not a weapon of the respective type, do you? Granted, it's seldom critical (at least in terms of charge reactions) since the unit type is different, but still, if you would argue that those weapons are not identical in terms of firing modes to the BRB rules, how would you know how to fire them? You use the rules form p.108-111 (or what they are exactly) - the same goes for all odd-named bolt throwers (like the harpoon) and for those the paragraph about slow to fire and move or fire count.

Doom diver is a warmachine. Use all rules p.108-110 unless stated otherwise.
Repeater Bolt Thrower is a warmachine. Use all rules p.108-110 unless stated otherwise.
Harpoon is not a warmachine's weapon, don't use the rules for warmachines.
Simple!

I don't accuse you of trying to cherrypick or anything btw, I know this is just a rule discussion for you, too

Good spirit! Like!

[Dalamar]

Do I have to understand that in your eyes, all rules p.108-111 apply to harpoon, unless expressely made clear they don't?

Yes, That's actually the case Calisson. Harpoon is a Bolt Thrower (here you look at the pages pertaining bolt throwers, including the universal rules pertaining all war machines, they were put at the front to save space and not be repeated in each machine's part) with listed exceptions (has a different profile and can move and shoot).

A harpoon is not exactly a bolt thrower, that's why it gets another name.

But then neither is Spear Chukka, Reaper Bolt Thrower, Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower, Ravager Harpoon, or Eagle Eye Bolt Thrower. I believe the only actual bolt thrower bolt thrower is owned by dwarfs.

[Forumite]

I´m with the side Slow to Fire side. I´d treat the harpoon as if that particular weapon carried by the Scourgerunner is the warmachine "Bolt Thrower" even if the chariot is not a war machine. It´s Slow to Fire, counts as a war machine attack against the Ironcurse Icon, etc. The only change is that it can fire on the move and has a slightly different weapon profile. Wish they had remembered to have it ignore armor. Oh well...

I´ve never met a Skullcannon but I´m frightened by the prospect of a Stand & Shooting cannon.

[Ilmaestro]

Before I throw a question out there, I just want to commend everyone for getting into a 'contentious' discussion without resorting to the usual interwebs attitudes and general assholery. It's nice to be part of a mature discussion, so thanks now to fling some shiz...

A harpoon is not exactly a bolt thrower, that's why it gets another name.
It rules are in the AB. Among the rule is Bolt Thrower, but not warmachine. So all rules p.111 apply unless superseded, no rule p.108-110 apply, that's simple and straightforwards.

I now understand where you're coming from - basically, the only reason you think that the scourgerunner can have a S&S reaction is because it is a Bolt Thrower without being a war machine. It makes sense, because pretty much every one of the war machine rules doesn't apply to the scourgerunner, as it is classified as a Chariot.

Well, after a little careful reading, I came across this:

BRB p.109: SHOOTING WITH WAR MACHINES
'Unless specified otherwise, all war machines weapons have the Move or Fire and Slow to Fire special rules.'

Whilst you might not agree that being labelled a Bolt Thrower makes it a war machine, would you be willing to concede that it is still a war machine weapon? If so, it would have Move or Fire and Slow to Fire as special rules unless otherwise stated - the former is negated by telling us that the bolt thrower can be fired even if the Scourgerunner Chariot moves, whilst the latter is not. Hence, without any otherwise specifications, it has Slow to Fire.

Of course, if that is not convincing enough (ie. you maintain that it is not a war machine weapon either), I would ask you to answer this question: what precedent has ever been set to make you believe that a Bolt Thrower could be anything but a war machine?

Hope that helps somewhat

[Gidean]

I have to agree with Trax here. The harpoon is identified as a bolt thrower and as such folliws all rules fir bolt throwers except those explicitly overridden.

Has anybody noticed or argued the fact that if the monster shot is dragged 3+ inches it suffers another Wound, with no armor save allowed? I mean why have that line in there unless the bolt/harpoon also ignores armor saves?

It's just silly that Mat gave the str 5 skycutter 'no armor saves allowed" and he would deny it to a str 7 scourgerunner. I'm pretty sure that when he classified it as a 'bolt thrower than can move and shoot" he intended to make it 'no armor save allowed'. This also means it does NOT stand and shoot. It is a bolt thrower. They can't do that.

[Calisson]

For those who say BRB 108-110 is part of BT rules, explain how you take a Strength test for a S-runner. Characteristic tests are described p.108, last paragraph.
If you don't use last paragraph p.108, explain how come you are allowed to discard it, since you claim that all warmachine rules must be applied unless specifically stated otherwise.
Also, could you explain if the crew's RXB can stand & shoot or not, and why?

For those who say only last paragraph p.109 applies to harpoon, for some reason, please confirm me that you will pivot your scourgerunner towards the target before firing, and that you will measure the distance from the harpoon (so the whole length of the horses is lost), rather than from the model like a COC.

For those who say that "Move & Shoot" and "Slow to Fire" have become inherent part of the Bolt Thrower, as a warmachine's weapon, please explain me why you would keep "Slow to Fire" and drop "ignores armour save"? And if you keep "Ignore Armour Saves", why did they have to reprint "Multiple Wounds (D3)"?
AFAIK, the whole special rules from the profile have been superseded.

[Trax]

The S-tests are auto-failed according to the unit-type warmachine. The SC is a chariot. The bolt thrower is a war machine *weapon*, that's why models shooting with such a weapon need to fire in a certain way - this doesn't render the whole model a war machine. Again: The whole FAQ would be completely meaningless if there was no distinction between war machine units and units shooting with war machine weapons. And the FAQ ensure that the ladder still suffer from all rules relevant to *shooting* with war machine weapons. Still doesn't make the chariot a war machine.

The RXB can S&S, of course, it's a chariot and the RXB don't use war machine weapons rules.

I haven't thought about neither the measuring from the harpoon nor the pivoting and I agree this is a problem, but it has nothing to do with the Slow to Fire issue. To still give an answer to this: I tend to not allow a free pivot since the pivoting is allowed to "war machines" which means the unit type in the relevant paragraph. Measuring from the harpoon seems sensible, but so does measuring from the base for the same reason that I don't think the free pivot is allowed - it's no war machine and with other unit types distances are measured from base to base. But I'm ready to concede this point since I'm really not sure about this, since it's kind of a grey-ish area.

Ignores armour is dropped because it isn't part of the harpoon's profile whereas the exemplary bolt thrower from the BRB lists this rules. Since the HE Skycutter (a perfect precedent) lists "ignores AS" as well, you've gotta be *really* thickheaded to bring it up at all whether AS are allowed or not. About the profile itself: Yes, the whole profile including the special rules has been overwritten. That's why they had to restate the Multiple Wounds and that's why we can be sure that AS are allowed. I don't know why you correlate "Move and Fire"/"Slow to Fire" and "ignores AS"/"Multiple wounds" btw - these rule parts are clearly written in a different spot and if the profile is changed there is no reason to think the rules out of a whole other paragraph are no longer in effect. A modified profile doesn't change the base rules of a BT which is "Move and Fire"/"Slow to Fire". Notice how "Move and Fire" isn't even part of the profile (like they could have done easily) but part of another rules passage - just like "Move and Fire"/"Slow to Fire" and BTs in the BRB.

I rest my case here btw. I appreciate the discussion but we go around in circles for 20 posts or so and I see no one convincing the other, so I think it's best to agree to disagree and have each other walk away with their respective point of view/rulings.

[xFallenx]

Before I throw a question out there, I just want to commend everyone for getting into a 'contentious' discussion without resorting to the usual interwebs attitudes and general assholery. It's nice to be part of a mature discussion, so thanks now to fling some shiz...

The quality of the membership here is really quite exemplary, the forum as a whole is a reflection of that quality you all should be proud of.

[Kir]

I dont want to beat a dead horse here, but i think where this went wrong.

assumption 1: the scourgerunners harpoon is a war machine (i don't have the book yet, so can't confirm).
fact 1: if you are of the war machine type, you follow the rules in the chapter about war machines.
fact 2:the chapter about war machines has 2 distinct bits, part 1: general rules for war machines and part 2: specific war machines
fact 3: the first part of the chapter are applicable ONLY to war machines of the war machine troop type.( Quote:"The first part of rules pertains to the rules for the war machine troop type— essentially its chassis and crew — which apply to all war machines" . this is a self-contradicting statement. there are war machines of a not-warmachine type, hence i feel we may safely ignore the second part of the sentence. if you don't ignore it you end up with infantry, monsters and chariots with nonsensical rules.)
fact 4: the scourgerunner is of the type chariot
conclusion 1 (fact 3+4): since the scourgerunner does not have the war machine troop type, and the rules of the first part of the chapter (including the slow to fire paragraph) do not apply to war machines that do not have the war machine troop type, the scourgerunner ignores the rules written in the first part of the chapter.
fact 5: chariots may stand and shoot
conclusion 2( fact 5+ conclusion 1): a scourgerunner's harpoon may stand and shoot.
if the scourgerunner's harpoon is not a war machine, it doesn't follow the rules for war machines hence uses the rules for bolt throwers only (page 111) modified with the stats listed in the entry of the scourgerunner/it's harpoon. you don't apply the other war machine rules because it's not a war machine.
there you have it, chariot based war machines may stand and shoot, whichever way the scourgerunner is worded. This is a general rule issue, not a issue with the scourgerunner itself, so we should ask GW whether that sentence quoted above applies as i read it, or whether the entire war machine rules need major overhaul

[Dalamar]

assumption 1: the scourgerunners harpoon is a war machine (i don't have the book yet, so can't confirm).

It is not, it is a "war machine weapon" though.

fact 1: if you are of the war machine type, you follow the rules in the chapter about war machines.

Correct, but FAQ expanded this to war machine weapons, which are not war machines themselves but still follow the rules. So you could be Monster type with a war machine weapon and have to follow the rules for war machines to use that weapon unless otherwise specified (isn't TK bone giant able to carry a giant "bolt thrower" bow?)

Ravager Harpoon is a war machine weapon, which follows all rules for war machines without being a warmachine type.

[Kir]

assumption 1: the scourgerunners harpoon is a war machine (i don't have the book yet, so can't confirm).

It is not, it is a "war machine weapon" though.

fact 1: if you are of the war machine type, you follow the rules in the chapter about war machines.

Correct, but FAQ expanded this to war machine weapons, which are not war machines themselves but still follow the rules. So you could be Monster type with a war machine weapon and have to follow the rules for war machines to use that weapon unless otherwise specified (isn't TK bone giant able to carry a giant "bolt thrower" bow?)

Ravager Harpoon is a war machine weapon, which follows all rules for war machines without being a warmachine type.

Just to make it clear, the FAQ expanded war machine weapons to fall under the initial statement of these traits apply to units of the war machine type? or "they follow the rules for war machines"? because with the second my point still stands.
My apologies for not having seen the FAQ's yet, have recently started playing again (great timing apparently).

[Forumite]

I don´t know if this question have been answered; Are Scourgerunners a good unit?

Also, when you fire the harpoon, can you fire the crossbows at the same time, or is it one or the other weapon?

[Dalamar]

Whether it's good or not is subjective. It's a powerful psychological weapon (you want to hide your monsters from war machines, this one can move around cover and spear your dragon with an S7 bolt) just because it will often hit on 5+ doesn't mean its bad. A single hit on the right target is often enough and the perception of threat is often more dangerous than the threat itself.
That said if you never face monsters or often face plenty of shooting you will want to protect your fragile ride or leave it at home.

The second crewman is armed with a crossbow and it only takes one to fire the harpoon so yes and no. One guy fires the reapeater, the other shoots the harpoon.

[Sulla]

I don´t know if this question have been answered; Are Scourgerunners a good unit?

They are an expensive, fragile unit that hits with higher strength than your usual shooting. Personally, I like it with all the t5 and 6 on the board these days, but it's not in my first 4 or 5 picks so it really comes down to if I have the points spare.

[Prince daerlythe]

I'm actually not sure you get to fire with the second crew member. Since the harpoon is classified as a BT with some modifications, I think it requires 2 people to fire.

From the BRB (English, p. 111): "A crew of two or more is required to wind back the powerful torsion arms and position the huge bolt ready for firing."

The chariot has 2 crew, so it can fire the harpoon, but I doubt they can fire anything else. So they have the harpoon for offensive use against large single models, while their RXBs are used to take out non-favourable BT targets and for S&S charge reactions. In the case of a High BM, the extra crewman is just S&S value and extra combat material.

[Haagrum]

I have to agree with Trax here. The harpoon is identified as a bolt thrower and as such folliws all rules fir bolt throwers except those explicitly overridden.

Has anybody noticed or argued the fact that if the monster shot is dragged 3+ inches it suffers another Wound, with no armor save allowed? I mean why have that line in there unless the bolt/harpoon also ignores armor saves?

Because the ability to ignore armour saves is part of the Bolt Thrower's profile in the BRB. The same attribute does not appear in the Ravager Harpoon's profile in our book. Fluff-wise, the barbs might reduce the armour penetrating capabilities of the bolt, requiring greater force to be effective (hence, S7 but allowing armour saves). In fairness, only targets with a save of 2+ or better (or where the Strength of the shot is adjusted for rank penetration) will get an armour save in any event.

As for the Barbed Bolts causing an extra Wound with no save if it drags a monster 3+ inches - this ability is only triggered after the harpoon has inflicted at least one Wound. It makes sense that dragging on a barbed harpoon that is already lodged in the target's body would bypass its armour saves.

[Calisson]

I appreciate the discussion but we go around in circles for 20 posts or so and I see no one convincing the other, so I think it's best to agree to disagree and have each other walk away with their respective point of view/rulings.

I believe we did make a progress:
Apparently, we are now all coming to an agreement that, among the whole set or warmachine rules, none apply except possibly the last paragraph p.109, "SHOOTING WITH WAR MACHINES" which deals with "war machine weapons" (that a harpoon may or may not be) rather than "war machines" (that a chariot is certainly not).

What remains to agree about is just whether this little paragraph applies to the harpoon or not.

Rationale for considering the harpoon a warmachine weapon: it has the rule "is a BT, ..." and BT is a warmachine weapon.
If the harpoon is to be considered a warmachine weapon, then:
- it has special rules "Move or Fire" (which is cancelled by the AB) and "Slow to Fire",
- LOS taken from the weapon itself
- chosen firing point is the weapon itself (not the model's base)
- before you fire, get a free pivot to face chosen target (so 360° LOS).

Rationale for not considering the harpoon a warmachine weapon: it is not on a warmachine, and it is not listed in the BRB as such (BT, cannons, fire throwers, stone throwers... but not harpoon).
If the harpoon is not to be considered a warmachine weapon, then:
- it may stand & shoot
- LOS is 90° front arc
- firing point is front of the model
- no free pivot.


-=-=-

I'm actually not sure you get to fire with the second crew member. Since the harpoon is classified as a BT with some modifications, I think it requires 2 people to fire.

From the BRB (English, p. 111): "A crew of two or more is required to wind back the powerful torsion arms and position the huge bolt ready for firing."

The chariot has 2 crew, so it can fire the harpoon, but I doubt they can fire anything else. So they have the harpoon for offensive use against large single models, while their RXBs are used to take out non-favourable BT targets and for S&S charge reactions. In the case of a High BM, the extra crewman is just S&S value and extra combat material.

Good spot! However, a BT can operate at normal speed with a single crew.

[Forumite]

Keeping the distinction between War Machine Models and War Machine Weapons, I´d say that the Scourgerunner is not allowed a free pivot, since it is not a warm machine model. They can fire in a 90° angle like bolt throwers, no surprise there. Measuring for most things works like normal to the base and not the body of the war machine. However, I´m not sure if you should measure from the weapon itself or the model when determining ranges to the target. I´d like to say that it has a base and you measure to the base like all BS shooting, ignoring the workaround that exist because of the lack of models for war machines, but not 100% sure on this.

Of course I´d like to get my full 24'' of range, so in this case I´m biased in my favor, unlike with S&S and pivoting where I don´t really mind losing those possible advantages in favor of reading the rules in the way I think they should be interpreted. Losing 4'' range on my bolt thrower, I´m not so sure i'm ready to give that up.

Not sure about number of crew needed to shoot the harpoon, harpoon and 2 RXBs could work just as easily as only the harpoon OR the RXBs. The only rule I can find is on p88 in the small rule book in the weapons section. "If for some reason a model has more than one missile weapon, he is allowed to choose which one to fire during the shooting phase", so either the harpoon or the crossbows.

[Prince daerlythe]

What remains to agree about is just whether this little paragraph applies to the harpoon or not.

Rationale for considering the harpoon a warmachine weapon: it has the rule "is a BT, ..." and BT is a warmachine weapon.
If the harpoon is to be considered a warmachine weapon, then:
- it has special rules "Move or Fire" (which is cancelled by the AB) and "Slow to Fire",
- LOS taken from the weapon itself
- chosen firing point is the weapon itself (not the model's base)
- before you fire, get a free pivot to face chosen target (so 360° LOS).

Rationale for not considering the harpoon a warmachine weapon: it is not on a warmachine, and it is not listed in the BRB as such (BT, cannons, fire throwers, stone throwers... but not harpoon).
If the harpoon is not to be considered a warmachine weapon, then:
- it may stand & shoot
- LOS is 90° front arc
- firing point is front of the model
- no free pivot.

I think this sums up our discussion quite nicely. All that remains is deciding with your opponent which way the rules apply before the game begins to ensure a fun play.

[Drek]

I don´t know if this question have been answered; Are Scourgerunners a good unit?

In my opinion: no.