Are Cold One Knights OP?

[SemprusOfClarGarond]

If the COK's get the charge, they are:

Hitting on 3's against most everything, re-rollable.

Wounding on 2's, re-rolling wound results of a 1.

This doesn't even include the 2 attacks from the Cold Ones themselves

So basically anything that hits will wound at S6 and most of their attacks will hit statistically considering they are hitting on 3+ and re-rolling misses against almost everything due to Initiative 6... plus Cold One attacks.

This seems incredibly overpowered. Unless the unit they are attacking is Stubborn, they will force them to roll insane courage in most cases. Of course, this is not taking into account their armor save etc. Everything mentioned above for just 30 points...

The only weakness I see thus far is Stupidity which is easy to circumvent (Malus) or marginalize with high leadership.

This is far better, in my opinion, than Executioners mainly because of the re-rolls to hit. Granted, they are only getting their Strength 6 on the charge but if you crunch some numbers, that's all you'll need to wipe out small units or win by insane combat resolution. The Executioner's Killing Blow is negligible and not as worthwhile as getting re-rolls on hits in all rounds of combat.

[Gidean]

If the COK's get the charge, they are:

Hitting on 3's against most everything, re-rollable.

Wounding on 2's, re-rolling wound results of a 1.

*This doesn't even include the 2 attacks from the Cold Ones themselves*

So basically anything that hits will wound at S6 and most of their attacks will hit statistically considering they are hitting on 3+ and re-rolling misses against almost everything due to Initiative 6... plus Cold One attacks.

This seems incredibly overpowered. Unless the unit they are attacking is Stubborn, they will force them to roll insane courage in most cases. Of course, this is not taking into account their armor save etc. Everything mentioned above for just 30 points...

The only weakness I see thus far is Stupidity which is easy to circumvent (Malus) or marginalize with high leadership.

They are 30 freaking points each, T3 and movement 7. Plus stupid. They BETTER have great combat prowess. Oh and don't forget only one attack for the knight. The beast does not get re-rolls or strike first.

[SemprusOfClarGarond]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since they aren't barded steeds, they don't suffer a further -1 to movement so they have the same movement 7 as Chaos Knights and Blood Knights etc?

[Gidean]

And there are many knights that are faster. Dragon Princes and Silverhelms for instance.

[Searinox Nagharha]

Thats right they dont suffer the movement penalty.
However this insane power only sticks for the first round of combat. After that they are just S4. Thats why i like to load mine with the Banner of Murder. Makes em abit more fighty in following rounds od combat.

Also dont forget that with a 2+AS they make a pretty nice anvil aswell.

[Kargan daemonclaw]

OK compare 180 points of knights against 180 points of 180 points of executioners, 6 knights charge 15 executioners. the knights go first hitting on 4s rerolling = 5 hits = 5 kills (rounding up). 10 executioners go back with 5 hits and 5 wounds say 1 save. the surviving cold one goes and gets 1 hit for 1 kill. the executioners are now steadfast and pass.
next turn the knight goes and maybe kills 1 executioner then the remaining 7 executioners cut him out of his saddle.

same against most elite infantry against skaven those points represent 2 units of 40 slaves or 1 unit of slaves and a unit of globardiers.

try smashings into skullcrushers or demigryphs you still won't do very well. the 6 knights maybe kill 1 demigryph on the charge and that's by no means certain as they are faster than you. then the demigriphs go back and kill 3-4. next turn you do nothing and then get pecked to death.

[Thraundil]

CoK are strong, no doubt about it. But remember their role. They do not charge infantry (unless no other target is present), that is not their purpose. In kargans example, the CoK lose because they charge into a unit that is specifically designed to cut down knights, so comparing the two against each other is stupid.

What does CoK have that executioners does not? Mobility and armor, and they strike first. What should CoK therefore hunt, that executioners will be unable to or not ideal for? Fast monsters, other cavalry, or act as flank chargers where their "guaranteed 5 kills" will do much to win you combat. Executioners, being infantry, go against other infantry, slow monsters or whatnot. If cavalry charges them, fine, take those free VP, but dont expect to catch knights with executioners unless the opponent makes a mistake.

What makes the CoK strong is its ability to kill a pre-wounded monster (e.g. a bolt thrower shot) reliably, kill a full hp monster on occasion (but rarely, since these guys DO have high T), and then their flanking threat. Is your block about to be charged by a grind machine that will ultimately win due to staying power? Position your knights on the flank of your unit, reform it deep for ranks. If he charge you, the following turn you smash into his flank and annihilate him. If he doesnt charge you, the initiative is yours. This is the role of the knights - not front charging infantry, however much damage they can do, it wont matter if you cant break steadfast, and then your cav is locked up.

[Omnichron]

CoK are almost as they were in the past. The new rules makes them slightly better on the offense, but since they also cost 3 more points, I think they are decent enough. T3 and 2+ armor means that they die very easily though, close to being overpriced in some situations (Where you might meet MC and close combat troops with high S... which there are tons of).

All in all, they CoK are useful... OP? Far from it.

[housou]

I usually run 10 cok and they decimate anything they hit although I'll be honest not all of them make it the as there a big target but while there trying to kill them everything else gets through reasonably unscathed

[Cold73]

CoK overpowerd?
LOL.

With movement of 7; and being stupid, they will only rarely even get a charge of against other cavalry.
The fact that they will do a lot of damage IF they get the charge of is the one thing they have going for them.
And all this for 30 points a piece AND taking a SPECIAL slot.

Empire and High Elves can get the same kind of troops for less points but those are a core choice.
And don;t even get me started about the 2+ armour save being good...lol..most of your opponent will easily have a 4+ Strenght ..meaning you will loose a knignt every three wounds.
Compare this to the 1+ armour save of empire knights..who will only loose 1 knight against every 6 wounds.

I would dearly love to use my CoK's but how can i justify using this expensive units if it can easily get stuck in a unit of halberdiers who will proceed to kill my expensive knights even after i have lost my precious charge.

[T.D.]

Pluses:

Rerolls making them insane combat machines.

Minuses:

Stupidity, slower than some other heavy/super heavy cavalry, units that can beat them on the grind/combat res.


On balance I would say the things out there that can take them out make them not overpowered for their points value. But I think 8th CoK are the strongest (non MI-supported) version we have had so far.

Indeed, with the power of even basic units of five, MSU Knights look very interesting to combine with the Warlocks/Dark Riders/Steed Masters lists we are seeing a lot of recently...

[Gidean]

Thats right they dont suffer the movement penalty.
However this insane power only sticks for the first round of combat. After that they are just S4. Thats why i like to load mine with the Banner of Murder. Makes em abit more fighty in following rounds od combat.

Also dont forget that with a 2+AS they make a pretty nice anvil aswell.

There's no Banner of Murder anymore.

[Phierlihy]

Add to that, 5-10 T3 models is not an anvil.

[Paricidas]

CoK are almost as they were in the past.

I kindly (and strongly) disagree. CoK always had ASF (if they wanted it) and their attacks got reduced from up to three to a Maximum of one (or two if you like your cavallery frenzied).

The 5 CoK-vanilla gang is a Little bit stronger than befor, due to the built in ASF mechanics, and a Little bit more expensive, so there is really no big difference, when we talk about small MSU Units.

When we talk about Units that really matter, the CoK probably got hit very very hard by the nerf bat, at least I cannot think of any combinations that Combine realistic Points cost with the ability to break r&f infantery on the Charge, something you could do with the old AB (if you wanted it...)

[Searinox Nagharha]

Thats right they dont suffer the movement penalty.
However this insane power only sticks for the first round of combat. After that they are just S4. Thats why i like to load mine with the Banner of Murder. Makes em abit more fighty in following rounds od combat.

Also dont forget that with a 2+AS they make a pretty nice anvil aswell.

There's no Banner of Murder anymore.

Razor Standaart then keep mixing them up but they end up doing the same thing

@Phierlihy
true, while they arent your standart anvil persee I've had em stand up for several rounds of combat thanks to there 2+ armor save

[Gerner]

Still they won't bog down as much in those infantry blocks - due to the two extra strength four attacks from the cold ones.
Also the 2+ armour save is as good as it gets with our troops.

[SemprusOfClarGarond]

OK compare 180 points of knights against 180 points of 180 points of executioners, 6 knights charge 15 executioners. the knights go first hitting on 4s rerolling = 5 hits = 5 kills (rounding up). 10 executioners go back with 5 hits and 5 wounds say 1 save. the surviving cold one goes and gets 1 hit for 1 kill. the executioners are now steadfast and pass.
next turn the knight goes and maybe kills 1 executioner then the remaining 7 executioners cut him out of his saddle.

same against most elite infantry against skaven those points represent 2 units of 40 slaves or 1 unit of slaves and a unit of globardiers.

try smashings into skullcrushers or demigryphs you still won't do very well. the 6 knights maybe kill 1 demigryph on the charge and that's by no means certain as they are faster than you. then the demigriphs go back and kill 3-4. next turn you do nothing and then get pecked to death.

You're forgetting the 2 attacks from the Cold Ones.

[Gidean]

Your orginal question was are they OP? I think everyone agrees they do pretty well if not good for their points and are a unit that has a place in many list. But they are NOT over powered. For instance, if they were 35 points a piece I doubt you would see them in anyone's lists.

[Setomidor]

I've found that the Frenzy spell from the CoB makes all the difference in the world for the CoK. I normally don't like tactics that resolve around getting spells through (too unreliable), but even if they don't get the spell they normally won't lose and at only 150pts they are cheap enough to sacrifice. If they DO get the spell through, however, the effect is impressive.

[SemprusOfClarGarond]

CoK overpowerd?
LOL.

With movement of 7; and being stupid, they will only rarely even get a charge of against other cavalry.
The fact that they will do a lot of damage IF they get the charge of is the one thing they have going for them.
And all this for 30 points a piece AND taking a SPECIAL slot.

Empire and High Elves can get the same kind of troops for less points but those are a core choice.
And don;t even get me started about the 2+ armour save being good...lol..most of your opponent will easily have a 4+ Strenght ..meaning you will loose a knignt every three wounds.
Compare this to the 1+ armour save of empire knights..who will only loose 1 knight against every 6 wounds.

I would dearly love to use my CoK's but how can i justify using this expensive units if it can easily get stuck in a unit of halberdiers who will proceed to kill my expensive knights even after i have lost my precious charge.

First of all, only Empire Demigryph Knights and Reiksguard Knights are going to be both S6 on the charge and a 1+ armor save. Reiksguard Knights also taking up a special slot and they dont have ASF or Murderous Prowess. They cost 27 points so only 3 less than our CoK's AND their horses suck in CC compared to Cold Ones. Granted they do get stubborn but I wouldn't send a unit of CoK's into combat without a stubborn master or lord anyways.

The only armies that have the same or higher strength and similar armor saves are Chaos Knights which are insanely expensive at 40 pts without a mark or weapon, 45 with both. That is 1.5 CoK's. I'd much rather have CoK's especially considering Chaos Knights will only be S6 on the charge with a lance or S5 in all rounds with Enscorcelled Weapons.

Blood Knights, of course are the best cavalry in the game but they are 50 pts each. So again, point for point, I feel that CoK's are the way to go.

[marcopollo]

Well getting frenzy is easier now. So CoK with Frenzy have significantly more clout and can target bigger infantry head on. But, MSU CoK is fine.

[Daeron]

How is getting frenzy easier? The only option to get frenzy on COKs is the COB which is harder now: it's a bound spell.
Or am I missing something?
We lost the Hydra banner... So it certainly will be hard to match that "it's easy to get".

To put my opinion subtly, large units of COKs don't cut it at all.... not on their own anyway. The reliability of their attacks is completely destroyed by the low number of them.
They are a precision tool, but with M7 and stupidity they aren't very reliable at it, unfortunately.

The uses I see for them are:
- A small unit, with musician (optional) as cheap flankers, chaff hunters and monster support attacker
- A small unit with a tooled up dreadlord, as a bunker to soak up some wounds before the dreadlord finds his match
- A large unit, with character support to give it the punch it needs to be worth it.

Without character to tool a unit up, I don't think a large unit is worth the cost.

[direweasel]

I don't like the unreliability of them. I used to be a big believer in them as my "heavy cavalry" but enough failed charges on stupidity rolls, even with a lord in the unit, have forced me to see the error of my ways.

The only way I'd take them now would be with Darkblade to negate their stupidity altogether. But he's not cheap, so not something you're going to see often.

[Datalink7]

CoK overpowerd?
LOL.

With movement of 7; and being stupid, they will only rarely even get a charge of against other cavalry.
The fact that they will do a lot of damage IF they get the charge of is the one thing they have going for them.
And all this for 30 points a piece AND taking a SPECIAL slot.

Empire and High Elves can get the same kind of troops for less points but those are a core choice.
And don;t even get me started about the 2+ armour save being good...lol..most of your opponent will easily have a 4+ Strenght ..meaning you will loose a knignt every three wounds.
Compare this to the 1+ armour save of empire knights..who will only loose 1 knight against every 6 wounds.

I would dearly love to use my CoK's but how can i justify using this expensive units if it can easily get stuck in a unit of halberdiers who will proceed to kill my expensive knights even after i have lost my precious charge.

First of all, only Empire Demigryph Knights and Reiksguard Knights are going to be both S6 on the charge and a 1+ armor save. Reiksguard Knights also taking up a special slot and they dont have ASF or Murderous Prowess. They cost 27 points so only 3 less than our CoK's AND their horses suck in CC compared to Cold Ones. Granted they do get stubborn but I wouldn't send a unit of CoK's into combat without a stubborn master or lord anyways.

This is actually not correct. All knights in the empire list have a 1+. Additionally, one unit of Core knights can be upgraded to Inner Circle Knights with Strength 4 for 3 points a piece.

Regular Knights = 22 points each.
Inner Circle = 25 points each
Reiksguard = 27 points each.

All have 1+, and this allows two units with Strength 4.

[Omnichron]

When we talk about Units that really matter, the CoK probably got hit very very hard by the nerf bat, at least I cannot think of any combinations that Combine realistic Points cost with the ability to break r&f infantery on the Charge, something you could do with the old AB (if you wanted it...)

How could you break them more in the past than you can now? You got more damage potential now, so you would be able to kill off more r&f than you would in the past.