Skill to play Dark elves

[Zenith]

Hi,

After a couple games vs orcs and goblins, and gaining winning streaks. My friends conclusion got me thinking, do Dark elves need the level of skill like we used to do in earlier editions?

We need to see the background and context as well.

In general:

-Units/models got bigger (monstrous infantry/cavalry Huge consructs)
- Most warmachines don't need to guess ranges anymore
- More powerfull mass killing spells.

Army specific:

- We gained the much needed elven specific abilities, ASF. MP.
- We lost the charming Hatred.
- We lost the no brainer Pendant and hydra
- We gained the lots of good units.

In comparison to other armies:

- We don't have (non-BS) warmachines, Template weapons are the most effective now. (no partial hits and no guessing)
- We don't have a monstrous infantry/cavalry unit. Unlike the medusa who needs a personal coach.
- We can't build a blender or 3++ ward save build.

- We do have witch elves as core.
- We do have the best fast cav.
- We do have acces to powerfull magic.


On scale of armies, where do Dark elves stand on the level of skill needed to play.

- highest level (here would be Warriors of chaos, demons of chaos and Vampires)
- mid level ( ogres, emire, skaven, brettonians, orcs and goblins, high elves)
- lowest ( wood elves, beastmen, )

[T.D.]

Unlike the medusa who needs a personal coach.

Medusa will become a hero of battle one day. She just needs to take time to take stock, then set goals, forget about the hurting criticism of non-cursed Sorceresses, work on improving her self-esteem and really believe in herself.

My friends conclusion got me thinking, do Dark elves need the level of skill like we used to do in earlier editions?

In terms of 8th edition, its a difficult question. We are less one-click (Roadblock Lord, Hydra, Sac Dag, CoB buff) than the old book yet we seem to be stronger across the board (infantry especially).

I'd say we need a little more finesse these days. You can win big with all cavalry or COBWitch/Exec lists, but you can also make a mess at key points of the game. Stonger overall, but more skill required.

In terms of 4th edition, we are actually a functional, strong and playable army these days, as opposed to an afterthought by the developers. More skill was required because of limited army choices and developers-pet/power-creep opposition lists.

[islands]

I'd say DE require a lot more skill to play now then the previous book atleast. I feel like it's more challanging and more rewarding for tactical play. Sure there are still a few units that are quite easy and forgiving to use like CoB + witches and warlocks but I don't think they're on the same level as the dagger/pendant/hydra/old CoB. I agree with T.D. - DE require more skill now, but have the potential to be more powerful.

[Daeron]

I do find the army considerably easier to play than in 6th edition

[Kurze]

6th ed was AWFUL!!!

[Datalink7]

I'd say medium-low on the skill level requirement overall within the warhammer world. Though, to be honest, to me the game of Warhammer itself doesn't require that great of a level of skill once you get it down. Sure, there are some armies that are more and some that are less, but overall it isn't a game that requires a ton of skill after you get through the learning phase (which, due to the amount of individual rules and general GW vagueness, can take a while which leads to the impression that it takes a lot of skill).

[Dalamar]

Compared to 6th edition (even after revision) both our 7th and 8th edition books are smooth sailing.

[Cold73]

I think it really reguires skill to play well with Dark Elves...
Especially compared to other armies like Warriors of Chaos, Ogre or Orcs & Goblins
In my opinion these armies are the easiest to master...every unit can hold it;s one for at least a few rounds.
In the case of WoC & Ogres...they will hold due to not loosing to many wounds compaired to the damage this dish out.
And Orcs and Goblins...even if they loose combat the sheer mass of them will drag most units down before you are half way through their units.

Mind... I'm not thinking of using these against a horde of witch Elves with a Cauldron of Blood.

Dark Elves are way to fragile for this. Sure they will do a lot of damage...but as soon as they loose 10 models (big units 30+ are to expensive)...the unit has lost a lot of combat effectiveness....
Dark Elves are glass cannons...sure they do a lot of damage but if you sneeze towards them they fall over.
None of the Dark Elf units...save perhaps the Sister of Slaughter or the Witches with a CoB will be able to stand prolonged combat.
But these two units have rather obvious flaws as well... The sister dont have any save at all vs shooting and spells.
With elves are Frenzied, and we all now how easily frenzied hordes can be beaten.

Dont get me wrong...High Elves suffer much the same weakness as DE do...they are fragile...but easy access to Ward Ssaves all around the army helps mitigate at least a bit.
And ofcouse HE have access to one of the strongest road blocks in game. Phoenix Guard with a 4+/3+ Ward.

So yes... Dark Elves require a moe then average degree of skill to play properly. In stead of pinning one unit in place with one of our own, we need to redirect 2 units...and jump one unit with everything we have.

[Ichiyo1821]

Funny but my 8th edition lists is closer to my 6th ed lists more than 7th or early 8th with the old book.

The new DE got weaker in some of our book defining cheat mode builds but became better across the board which is beyter suited to my style of play. Now I literally have equal threat on all my units. Take your pick, WE, Execs, Dark Risers, Warlocks, COK, Kbeast, RBT, Rxb take your pick I can lose any. ALL can kill you, it's only a matter of when and who.

[Zenith]

Funny but my 8th edition lists is closer to my 6th ed lists more than 7th or early 8th with the old book.

The new DE got weaker in some of our book defining cheat mode builds but became better across the board which is beyter suited to my style of play. Now I literally have equal threat on all my units. Take your pick, WE, Execs, Dark Risers, Warlocks, COK, Kbeast, RBT, Rxb take your pick I can lose any. ALL can kill you, it's only a matter of when and who.

Woa!!

How does your current list look like then?
In global lines

[Zenith]

I think it really reguires skill to play well with Dark Elves...
Especially compared to other armies like or Orcs & Goblins
In my opinion these armies are the easiest to master...every unit can hold it;s one for at least a few rounds.


Mind... I'm not thinking of using these against a horde of witch Elves with a Cauldron of Blood.

.

Serious!

Im trying to help my O&G opponent friend. He is not a bad tactican But everytime He gets defeated. Only his Giant spider give's me a real headache.
What do you advise an O&G player against DE?

[Datalink7]

I think it really reguires skill to play well with Dark Elves...
Especially compared to other armies like or Orcs & Goblins
In my opinion these armies are the easiest to master...every unit can hold it;s one for at least a few rounds.


Mind... I'm not thinking of using these against a horde of witch Elves with a Cauldron of Blood.

.

Serious!

Im trying to help my O&G opponent friend. He is not a bad tactican But everytime He gets defeated. Only his Giant spider give's me a real headache.
What do you advise an O&G player against DE?

Against Dark Elves specifically, I would recommend a lot of chariots/manglers/squig chariots. Impact hits get past ASF. I'd do units of 2-3 on the chariots. Single chariots by themselves don't do enough damage.

[Calisson]

Goblin artillery is excellent and very cheap.
Fanatics are always good, however too easy to trigger.

[Datalink7]

Goblin artillery is excellent and very cheap.
Fanatics are always good, however too easy to trigger.

This too.

2x Doom Divers, 2x Rock Lobbas, and 6x Speare Chukkas doesn't run you very much but gives out a high volume of fire.

[Ichiyo1821]

Closer since I now use 4 units of fast cav and bolt throwers with knights and monsters. What's your friend's list and yours?

[Zenith]

Closer since I now use 4 units of fast cav and bolt throwers with knights and monsters. What's your friend's list and yours?

My list in mainlines is like this:

-Supreme sorceress, dark steed. 4++ dark lore
-Master, dark steed, Cloack of twilight
- Sometimes a Cauldron BSB death hag

30 witchies
10 rpx elves
5 dark riders

30 executioners
2 Bolt throwers

Hydra
5-7 Warlocks

His list mostly looks likes this:

Great orc shaman
Litte gobline shaman with an item that gives his unit a 5++

Great orc black boss
4++, great weapon

40 savage orcs
3 wolf chariots

2 Giant goblin tollers

(sometimes a Giant Spider)

4 Trolls.

[Underway]

Skill level required is often based upon the matchups. Try to win with all RHB corsairs against O&G. Then try WE with CoB against the same enemy list. The first army has a hard time, the WE army rips through them without breaking a sweat (oversimplification but you get the picture).

Overall though they are much easier to play than 6th (which were brutal), and harder to play than 7th. 7th gave you crutches like super cheap hydras and Mindrazor on unlimited PD channeling to win. Big bomb spells were nothing to DE if you included the Dagger. 8th ed book requires some thinking and much less point and click options.

[Colonel]

Your friend's list has no finesse. He needs some fast cav badly. Assuming he cant go buy a bunch of models I would suggest he split the trolls into three units. The single trolls can park in front of your witches in such a way that they turn 90 degrees or more if they charge and then must over-run due to frenzy, then Orcs in the flank for the win.

The problem isn't the DE needing little skill to play, it is the Orcs needing more than average skill but (IMO) attracting the more casual gamer.