Spearmen no longer viable?

[Nazgolith]

Greeting Druchii,

It seems the consensus round here is that in terms of core, DR, WE and Corsairs are our best core troops.

What I wanted to know is if anyone has any advice or experience with Spearmen with the new book (or, Dreadspears, though that sounds lame as frig IMO).

I ask mainly because what attracted me to Dark Elves in the first place was this idea of an evil yet elite army, with a sort of discipline and class that is absent in all other 'evil' armies. To me, the idea of a wall of jagged bloody spears epitomizes this idea, and I found some of the tales in the new book really fueled this.

So basically - I'm aiming to have my core consist of some 2-3 units of RxB wielding DR with a large spear-wall of perhaps 30-40 spearman - what are your thoughts on this? How could I make this work? What units would syncronize well with this initial set-up and fill needed gaps?

Thank you for your time,

Nazgolith.

[Holt]

I think that the general consensus around here is that in a point for point comparison the other core choices just come out on top. This is possibly set to change with a new edition of warhammer but untul that happens there are plenty of ways to make the most of your spearmen.

The obvious way would be from magic boosts. A number of lores offer spells that can boost most stats including the main ones lile strength, toughness and attacks. The easy to cast spells that give boosts like +1 to hit and the likes can be helpful too.

You could also go along the path of adding characters to the unit. Any choice of combat character will benefit the unit, while a cauldron of blood will give them a save and possibly frenzy too.

These are just general tips that can be applied to most units but they are a starting point at least, I'm sure others will be able to elaborate further on the uses such as using spearmen as anvils.

[Askador]

Greeting Druchii,

It seems the consensus round here is that in terms of core, DR, WE and Corsairs are our best core troops.

What I wanted to know is if anyone has any advice or experience with Spearmen with the new book (or, Dreadspears, though that sounds lame as frig IMO).

I ask mainly because what attracted me to Dark Elves in the first place was this idea of an evil yet elite army, with a sort of discipline and class that is absent in all other 'evil' armies. To me, the idea of a wall of jagged bloody spears epitomizes this idea, and I found some of the tales in the new book really fueled this.

So basically - I'm aiming to have my core consist of some 2-3 units of RxB wielding DR with a large spear-wall of perhaps 30-40 spearman - what are your thoughts on this? How could I make this work? What units would syncronize well with this initial set-up and fill needed gaps?

Thank you for your time,

Nazgolith.

None of the Core of the Darkelves is really bad since They have always strike first and MP.
I just love the Witches and Dark Riders. That does not left many options for other stuff

[Calisson]

Spearmen & swordsmen may be not as fighty as corsairs or WE, but they remain cheaper.
The appropriate use for spearmen & swordsmen is to make good use of that lower cost.
That could be in expandable units, smallest size, but there is no point in being expandable when you are not maneuvrable like harpies, fighty like WE or taunting like RHB corsairs.
The real use is in large units, i.e. 40 to 50.

Spearmen & swordsmen are meant to win the steadfast war. Sure, they are more expensive than most opponent steadfast candidate units, but they fight much better and they are supposed to win combat repeatedly until the opponent is no longer steadfast.
In this role, swordsmen are more resilient with the shield, and cope better with a supporting steadfast role, where elite units are supposed to do the killing when core infantry is supposed to last as long as possible.
Spearmen have no shield but add 5 attacks, they shrink quicker but may kill more, especially if boosted somehow.

Spearmen are better than swordsmen as a horde. 40 of them, 10 wide, fight with 41 attacks. Well, that's the same as 20 WE... but spearmen don't lose frenzy and have twice as many wounds.

The real use for spearmen is the ability to adapt to situation: take 50 of them, set them either in horde or in steadfast bus, according to what you face.

[Bigboar]

what about an halberds-wall?
a big unit of black guards will be more usefull, and with a simialiar outlook on the battlefield.

Dreadspears are not useless but they won't fight better then any other core (darkshards included) and if you already plan 3 unit of DR and maybe a couple of darkshards your core is enough up to 2500 points, then better fill the remaining with special or rare units.

[Daeron]

In my opinion, what really hit them is the loss of the armour piercing banner. S3 attacks with armor piercing are a whole different game than S3 without.

But that doesn't mean you can't make the unit serve. It just needs more tricks. I've seen a tournament player field a unit of spears with a combat character regularly and it seems he's successful with it. At least, he seems to score in tournaments I'd shiver in my boots to partake in!

I'd like to get back into fielding spears some day... but there's so many other themes to explore first!

[Cold73]

I don't think spearman are a bad choice...they do fulfill their purpose...just as corsairs for that matter. Spearman however need more models to do the same number of attacks as corsairs.

For me...my core is mostly filled with 2-3 units of Dark Riders...and 1 unit of 14-21 Witch Elves, for my monster hunting unit.

But it should very well be possible to create a solid list with Spear Elves as core...you will however need to have something in that unit..that can deal with 1+ AS knights and the like.
Think of a Dreadlord or a Master...maybe even both.
Then ofcourse you will need to use make that can really buff your units or debuff your enemies.... Think of Lore of Beasts or Shadow. ... in some case Lord of Dark Magic might work as well, but that is a lore better used in more agressive lists i feel.

The CoB will also really shine in a list like this...especially if you dont manage to get the right spells of in a certain round.

You will ofcourse need a few hard hitting units to aid the spearman...think of executioners or CoK... and a few units for hunting warmachines.think harpies...shades..dark riders...warlocks

[Askador]

Well it might work to put a Dreadlord and a CoB inside the Spear unit.
So they get a 6++ and can reroll the S3 wounds. That should be a big +.
The Dreadlord can deal with all AS1 guys with Ignoring armor and let the Ward reroll.

And if you need you can also boost the Spears with the CoB buff.

It could be a good unit but after all they are still just bad Witches.

[Cold73]

Don't get me wrong here....
It is not up to discussion which core units is better...or not...
In that regard...Witch Elves are better in a straight up fight...but WE are also easier to control from an enemy stand point... Test or forced to charge...forced to overrun.... I always love that when my opponent has units like that.

Lets just focus on what to do to make a unit of Dreadspears viable.

As for placing the COB in the unit of Spears...
on the one side..you gain a 6++ ward...but on the other side you loose about 9-12 attacks.
What about leaving the CoB roam free..and flank charge the enemy units?

[Askador]

Don't get me wrong here....
It is not up to discussion which core units is better...or not...
In that regard...Witch Elves are better in a straight up fight...but WE are also easier to control from an enemy stand point... Test or forced to charge...forced to overrun.... I always love that when my opponent has units like that.

Lets just focus on what to do to make a unit of Dreadspears viable.

As for placing the COB in the unit of Spears...
on the one side..you gain a 6++ ward...but on the other side you loose about 9-12 attacks.
What about leaving the CoB roam free..and flank charge the enemy units?

But you gain the Attacks of the Hag and the two Girls on the CoB, you get inpact hits attacking and Terror to avoid fear tests.

Im not a big fan of a free roaming CoB. Lost mine once against 20 Archers. (Yeah i know it was bad luck but still)
And if the Hag dies it has no Leadership anymore.

[Cold73]

@Askador

point well taken.... personally I even prefer to have the CoB loose, for several reason...
1) a bigger range of the CoB reroll to wound
2) Extra combat res. +1 flank... + attacks from Death Hag and Crew
3) Extra placement (can even place the CoB behind walls,buildings or troops to protect from shooting for a round.
4) Just another threat to redirectors.

But then again...i do agree..it does make it more vulnerable to regular shooting.

[Clockwork]

The Bloodwrack Shrine is probably a better candidate for joining than the Cauldron, if not just due to its +1 leadership (So you can bring something other than Standard of Discipline), but the Medusa also gives some S5 attacks, helps with Monsters, and keeps the unit Steadfast longer too.

[Dalamar]

Medusa attacks are only S4 (Impact hits are S5 though)

[Demetrius]

Medusa attacks are only S4 (Impact hits are S5 though)

When mounted, Medusa has a spear.

In the BWS entry, it lists that the crew are armed with spears. The Medusa is part of the crew, therefore has a spear.

Its fair enough, the model has a spear, and its not listed in the AB entry for a single Medusa because she would have no use for a spear on foot.

[Calisson]

When mounted, Medusa has a spear.
In the BWS entry, it lists that the crew are armed with spears. The Medusa is part of the crew, therefore has a spear.

In my AB (in French), the shrine entry specifies that the crew is composed of one medusa and two guards, and the spears equip guards, not crew.
Could you quote your AB in this regards?

[Aurelius]

English version:

"Crew: 1 Bloodwrack Medusa and 2 Shrinekeepers"

"Equipment (Crew): Spear"

[Clockwork]

My apologies, I did mean to say S4 - although Demetrius raises a good point.

[Calisson]

That's a clear difference between English and French.
I'll make a new topic here (Medusa equipment on Shrine: different translations) to discuss that.

[Askador]

English version:

"Crew: 1 Bloodwrack Medusa and 2 Shrinekeepers"

"Equipment (Crew): Spear"

The german Version is the same

[lil' fisty]

I take 49 horded spears with command and the Standard of Discipline, then a Noble with mundane gear, the Obsidian Amulet and Ironcurse Icon for 618 points.

It is all about how you SELL that unit to the enemy. Leadership 10, 44 attacks, ward saves...spoooky...put it just off to the left or right and it can scare people into exposing flanks to far better fights thinking they should actually worry about it most. but it only seems to do well at 2400+ points.

[direweasel]

I take spears too, but mainly for the same reasons as the OP. I have a bunch of the models and I like their look on the field. I still have the old metal ones and I just like them, so I take them. I don't feel the need to optimize every point for one-off battles, I field what I like. And as others have said, they do have their uses, and they're versatile and cheap.

[Fr0]

I like a big block of 39 Dreadspears to house my Sorceress, with a Dagger of Sacrifice. I give them Gleaming Pendant, in case they get spooked.
Takes my opponent a little bit to chew through them, stabbing the enemies first in four ranks while the sorc casts nastiness to whittle numbers, and reduce stats. They are accompanied by a couple of units of DR with RxB, who chip away at ranks, bait and funnel them close to the spearblock and flank the enemy unit.

[Askador]

I like a big block of 39 Dreadspears to house my Sorceress, with a Dagger of Sacrifice. I give them Gleaming Pendant, in case they get spooked.
Takes my opponent a little bit to chew through them, stabbing the enemies first in four ranks while the sorc casts nastiness to whittle numbers, and reduce stats. They are accompanied by a couple of units of DR with RxB, who chip away at ranks, bait and funnel them close to the spearblock and flank the enemy unit.

How do you evade that your Sorceress gest killed? Many spells needs to get in range. And attacking a bunch of Spearguys isnt so scary if you can kill the Wizard in there.

[Fr0]

If she dies, she dies. Not too many things I fight that can single her out, and I don't lose hair if she dies. I cut up the scary stuff with my hard hitting units, if i can't deal with them directly they are kited around the board by my DR. If they send scary stuff to kill her specifically, then I've indirectly dealt with them. As for the range of spells, it depends what lore you take and two feet feels to be a good enough range to get things done.

At any rate, back on topic I feel that they are still worth fielding based on cost:performance, that and I have about 80 of them so I like to use the models I have.. 60 pewter Corsairs are not exactly light.