Are Executioners mandatory now?

[Askador]

As for the Kharibdyss.
Lol are you kidding me. That monster is the most useless piece of garbage.

The Lizardmen book says hi.

With the game seeming to shift back to an emphasis on shooting, I don't think our Witches will make it into combat as much as they did before. .

This is a really good point, and worth re-iterating. We're seeing a lot of good old BS shooting back on the table again, and that's going to cause problems. For Witch Elves, its not all that bad - really, you only need the first rank to make it to combat anyway so who cares if the rest get shot off? But it means increasing problems for Executioners, Black Guard and Sisters of Slaughter.

I'm not sure how this will go. More MSU, or bigger hordes? Both are plausible. Will we see more Corsairs, Knights and Chariots on the table instead?

Personally, I've rewritten my lists to be a MMU with a Knight block, an Executioner block, a Witch Elf block and a Chariot (amongst other things). I'll see how this goes, as I have a first game against the Woodies this weekend!

Well if i look at the Woodelves they have alot AP. Wich makes Corsairs as much endurable against shooting as witches with Cob. But Corsairs are unable to kill some drunken Halflings in Close combat
But thats even more worse for Execs and BG. All they have left is a 6+ Armor from Woodelves.

When it comes down to endure shooting its prob. the best way to play more Cav.
Dark Riders got better armor then Execs and BG and reaching the shooting lines much much faster.
Warloks have an 4++ against them.
Not sure about Knights. Yeah they have a good armor but against massive woodelf shooting its expensive to roll a 1,2,3.

Next would be Witches and Corsairs. 5++ or 5+ in that case.

Elite Infantry seems to have a bad position here.

Well you could give Ecexs, Corsairs and BGs a CoB also. But the Corsairs will still do no dmg but would have a 5+ and a 6++.
The BGs will be very expensive with it. And for the Execes its a 6+ 6++ and almost no use for rerolling all wounds since they wound on 2+ mostly anways.

[Gidean]

as much endurable against shooting as witches with Cob. But Corsairs are unable to kill some drunken Halflings in Close combat
But thats even more worse for Execs and BG. All they have left is a 6+ Armor from Woodelves.

When it comes down to endure shooting its prob. the best way to play more Cav.
Dark Riders got better armor then Execs and BG and reaching the shooting lines much much faster.
Warloks have an 4++ against them.
Not sure about Knights. Yeah they have a good armor but against massive woodelf shooting its expensive to roll a 1,2,3.

Next would be Witches and Corsairs. 5++ or 5+ in that case.

Elite Infantry seems to have a bad position here.

Well you could give Ecexs, Corsairs and BGs a CoB also. But the Corsairs will still do no dmg but would have a 5+ and a 6++.
The BGs will be very expensive with it. And for the Execes its a 6+ 6++ and almost no use for rerolling all wounds since they wound on 2+ mostly anways.

Or just take dozens of Dark Shards and Repears and skewer the Wood Elves. Like the Dwarves they are going to be costly units (their elites and upgrades) and won't have the numbers to absorb mass missile fire. Masters with repeater hand bows on Dark Steeds can probably get close enough to hit on 3+.... Our masters can easily get to 1+ armor. A -3 AP is still a save on a 4.

[Askador]

as much endurable against shooting as witches with Cob. But Corsairs are unable to kill some drunken Halflings in Close combat
But thats even more worse for Execs and BG. All they have left is a 6+ Armor from Woodelves.

When it comes down to endure shooting its prob. the best way to play more Cav.
Dark Riders got better armor then Execs and BG and reaching the shooting lines much much faster.
Warloks have an 4++ against them.
Not sure about Knights. Yeah they have a good armor but against massive woodelf shooting its expensive to roll a 1,2,3.

Next would be Witches and Corsairs. 5++ or 5+ in that case.

Elite Infantry seems to have a bad position here.

Well you could give Ecexs, Corsairs and BGs a CoB also. But the Corsairs will still do no dmg but would have a 5+ and a 6++.
The BGs will be very expensive with it. And for the Execes its a 6+ 6++ and almost no use for rerolling all wounds since they wound on 2+ mostly anways.

Or just take dozens of Dark Shards and Repears and skewer the Wood Elves. Like the Dwarves they are going to be costly units (their elites and upgrades) and won't have the numbers to absorb mass missile fire. Masters with repeater hand bows on Dark Steeds can probably get close enough to hit on 3+.... Our masters can easily get to 1+ armor. A -3 AP is still a save on a 4.

Im not sure if its a good idea to have a shootout battle against Woodelves.

[Gidean]

as much endurable against shooting as witches with Cob. But Corsairs are unable to kill some drunken Halflings in Close combat
But thats even more worse for Execs and BG. All they have left is a 6+ Armor from Woodelves.

When it comes down to endure shooting its prob. the best way to play more Cav.
Dark Riders got better armor then Execs and BG and reaching the shooting lines much much faster.
Warloks have an 4++ against them.
Not sure about Knights. Yeah they have a good armor but against massive woodelf shooting its expensive to roll a 1,2,3.

Next would be Witches and Corsairs. 5++ or 5+ in that case.

Elite Infantry seems to have a bad position here.

Well you could give Ecexs, Corsairs and BGs a CoB also. But the Corsairs will still do no dmg but would have a 5+ and a 6++.
The BGs will be very expensive with it. And for the Execes its a 6+ 6++ and almost no use for rerolling all wounds since they wound on 2+ mostly anways.

Or just take dozens of Dark Shards and Repears and skewer the Wood Elves. Like the Dwarves they are going to be costly units (their elites and upgrades) and won't have the numbers to absorb mass missile fire. Masters with repeater hand bows on Dark Steeds can probably get close enough to hit on 3+.... Our masters can easily get to 1+ armor. A -3 AP is still a save on a 4.

Im not sure if its a good idea to have a shootout battle against Woodelves.

We'll have to see. Everyone thought the new Dwarf Book spelled our Doom. I have not been seeing or reading any Battle Reports where they are wiping the table with us. It all comes down to just how much you can buy with your points.

[Vulcan]

Wtches against 1+ armor? Let's do the Mathhammer. Let's go whole hog and use the 30 Witch + Cauldron/Obsidian Blade Hag + Razor Standard setup, and we'll even be nice and say your opponent let the uberfrenzy spell through.

There'll be 7 Witches in each combat rank, so 29 attacks in the front rank plus another 14 supporting; 43 total. Most 1+ units will have WS 4+ so that's 22.5 hits (3.6 poison); the reroll for another 11.25 hits and 1.8 poisons. Total so far, 33.75 hits total, 5.4 of which are poisoned. So that means 38.35 rolls to wound against T3, 19.17 wounds, reroll for another 9.08; 28.25 inflicted. Add in the 5.4 poisons, we're up to 33.65.

Now for the killer. 1+ armor save becomes 2+ (whoopiee) and that 33.65 wounds drops to 5.5. Six dead knights or two dead chickens. Odds are the 5++ witches are going to take more than five wounds back, loose combat, loose frenzy, and be meat on the table next round.

Let's look at Executioners under the same circumstances. 14 attacks from the front rank, plus 14 support. We'll give the opposition WS 5 to be fair to the witches, so that's 14 hits. After MP rerolls, that's 13 wounds (at least), 2 dead outright, and 11 at -4 to save. Now those 1+ saves become 5+, and you have 11 dead knights (or with a bit of luck three dead chickens).

(The Hag and attendants add another 13 attacks - no extra attack from two hand weapons when mounted, remember! - between them; 6 attendant hits, 4.5 wounds, less than one gets through; the Hag drops 3.875 hits, S4 means 3 wounds, Obsidian Blade goes through armor. Call it 4 wounds for the cauldron... which applies to both the Witches AND the Executioners equally.)

Of course, if you dump the Cauldron and go with a Obsidian Blade Brewhag and Tullaris (no razor standard) the Executioners do even better... for similar points. Now there's 8 Executioners in the front for 25 attacks, plus 20 support, plus Tullaris and the Hag. 45 Executioner attacks do 22.5 hits, and 21.3 wounds (3 killing blow). 4+ save means 12 dead knights... and neither Tullaris (who adds 1.5 wounds) nor the OB Hag (3 wound)have gone yet. Give them back the Razor Standard and now we're up to 15 dead knights plus Tullaris (2) and OB Hag (still 3).

20 Dead knights by I5 takes a lot of the sting out of heavy cavalry.

[Saintofm]

So far the popular builds on the site, correct me if I am wrong, have been either black guard or witch elves. So if you wish to go executioner, go ahead. Personally still a fan of knights.

[Dark reaper]

Vulkan: your math is wrong. Remember that 1/3 hits are poison, not 1/6.

[Saintofm]

Vulkan: your math is wrong. Remember that 1/3 hits are poison, not 1/6.

If we are talking about 6 sided dice and witchelves, I think 1/6 fits.


Poison happens on a to hit role of 6. That is 1 out of 6 chance or 1/6 to hit. Hitting in general is about a 2/3 and 1/2 of the time as elves hit most things on 3+, with a 4+ against eleites and other elves.

[Askador]

Vulcan: Im more a fan of a Dreadlord inside the Witches then Tullaris inside the Execs.
If your Enemy is faster then you your living buff will be the first dead in the Execs. Thats 155 points for almost no Protection.

The Dreadlord has as1+ Rerolleable, Obsidian blade, the other Tricksters shard. The downside is he only works good with the CoB because of the Rerolls are needet for S4. Its 249 points. For such a Bastard its really cheap

When it comes to Skullcrushers i really better like them in the CoB block then the Execs. They hit the same time so no matter what happens, if you kill them or not, you can remove your half Unit or worse.
With a little luck in the Witches there is not much attacks coming back and they got better protection against them.

[Dark reaper]

Vulkan: your math is wrong. Remember that 1/3 hits are poison, not 1/6.

If we are talking about 6 sided dice and witchelves, I think 1/6 fits.


Poison happens on a to hit role of 6. That is 1 out of 6 chance or 1/6 to hit. Hitting in general is about a 2/3 and 1/2 of the time as elves hit most things on 3+, with a 4+ against eleites and other elves.

You are confusing attacks with hits.

[Fr0]

I've pretty much always taken then in an infantry heavy army (including past editions, where they weren't so great but fit well with the theme of the list). This edition has improved them quite a lot. It's often a decision between them, and CoK for me. Matter of preference (and/or nerdhammering I guess )

[Dark reaper]

Btw, the entire premise for the discussion is moot. It is not that WE are good against 1+ armour, it is that they do decent against it due to characters in the unit, such as a s7 Dreadlord for example, while at the same time being able to dish out so much damage that nothing that isn't 1+ dare to even come near them. We also have Bolt Throwers, which are excellent against MC and are able to take down some of them before they reach combat.

[Vulcan]

Vulcan: Im more a fan of a Dreadlord inside the Witches then Tullaris inside the Execs.
If your Enemy is faster then you your living buff will be the first dead in the Execs. Thats 155 points for almost no Protection.

The Dreadlord has as1+ Rerolleable, Obsidian blade, the other Tricksters shard. The downside is he only works good with the CoB because of the Rerolls are needet for S4. Its 249 points. For such a Bastard its really cheap

When it comes to Skullcrushers i really better like them in the CoB block then the Execs. They hit the same time so no matter what happens, if you kill them or not, you can remove your half Unit or worse.
With a little luck in the Witches there is not much attacks coming back and they got better protection against them.

If you really want that Dreadlord, he can easily go in the Exectioners as well. Oops, he needs a Cauldron... so if the Cauldron gets canonized, he becomes a 249-point liability.

Tullaris goes on a corner, and the unit goes two wider than the opposition to minimize attacks on him. (The Brewhag goes in the other corner; kinda surprised you didn't pick on her).

And the point remains, if you give them the EXACT SAME BOOSTS as Witches (and your Dreadlord counts), Executioners will statistically outperform them against 1+/2+ every time.

Yes, something that goes before the Exes will hurt them. That's HE, other DE, probably WE, and characters with I6 or the ASF sword. That's it. And yes, the fast character can challenge to try and get Tullaris and the Brewhag. That's what Champions are for; to buy that turn so the unit can shatter the character's unit.

[Vulcan]

Btw, the entire premise for the discussion is moot. It is not that WE are good against 1+ armour, it is that they do decent against it due to characters in the unit, such as a s7 Dreadlord for example, while at the same time being able to dish out so much damage that nothing that isn't 1+ dare to even come near them. We also have Bolt Throwers, which are excellent against MC and are able to take down some of them before they reach combat.

Put that same S7 character in a unit of Executioners or COK and see what happens.

[Grogsnotpowwabomba]

I prefer Black Guard (with Razor Banner) to Executioners. They are much more reliable in both the ability to do damage (more attacks that hit more often) and obviously are more reliable in terms of staying power.

I find the -2 armor save is enough to defeat most opponents. If I can get a Power of Darkness off on them they become truly scary.

[Dalamar]

My only problem with black guard is their cost. 15 points is hell of a lot for a T3 5+ save model. Yeah they stick around and are extremely reliable, but come up 1+ save and they struggle

[Saintofm]

My only problem with black guard is their cost. 15 points is hell of a lot for a T3 5+ save model. Yeah they stick around and are extremely reliable, but come up 1+ save and they struggle

We play elves. This is our Achilles Heal: Armor piercing and S4 attacks. I a, not sure why this is worse then any other elf unit in the game.

[Dalamar]

I understand this is our Achilles heel.

That's why I'd rather pay 12 or 11 points per elf than 15 points per elf.

[Archamedius]

Wtches against 1+ armor? Let's do the Mathhammer. Let's go whole hog and use the 30 Witch + Cauldron/Obsidian Blade Hag + Razor Standard setup, and we'll even be nice and say your opponent let the uberfrenzy spell through.

There'll be 7 Witches in each combat rank, so 29 attacks in the front rank plus another 14 supporting; 43 total. Most 1+ units will have WS 4+ so that's 22.5 hits (3.6 poison); the reroll for another 11.25 hits and 1.8 poisons. Total so far, 33.75 hits total, 5.4 of which are poisoned. So that means 38.35 rolls to wound against T3, 19.17 wounds, reroll for another 9.08; 28.25 inflicted. Add in the 5.4 poisons, we're up to 33.65.

Now for the killer. 1+ armor save becomes 2+ (whoopiee) and that 33.65 wounds drops to 5.5. Six dead knights or two dead chickens. Odds are the 5++ witches are going to take more than five wounds back, loose combat, loose frenzy, and be meat on the table next round.

You ignored their ranks and potential charge (and impact hits too) which extends the amount of damage required to beat the witch elves by a significant amount.

[Askador]

Wtches against 1+ armor? Let's do the Mathhammer. Let's go whole hog and use the 30 Witch + Cauldron/Obsidian Blade Hag + Razor Standard setup, and we'll even be nice and say your opponent let the uberfrenzy spell through.

There'll be 7 Witches in each combat rank, so 29 attacks in the front rank plus another 14 supporting; 43 total. Most 1+ units will have WS 4+ so that's 22.5 hits (3.6 poison); the reroll for another 11.25 hits and 1.8 poisons. Total so far, 33.75 hits total, 5.4 of which are poisoned. So that means 38.35 rolls to wound against T3, 19.17 wounds, reroll for another 9.08; 28.25 inflicted. Add in the 5.4 poisons, we're up to 33.65.

Now for the killer. 1+ armor save becomes 2+ (whoopiee) and that 33.65 wounds drops to 5.5. Six dead knights or two dead chickens. Odds are the 5++ witches are going to take more than five wounds back, loose combat, loose frenzy, and be meat on the table next round.

You ignored their ranks and potential charge (and impact hits too) which extends the amount of damage required to beat the witch elves by a significant amount.

Btw: 6 Dead knights or 2 dead chickens and losing more then five Witches.. thats a deal i take anytime with pleasure. I would even give you 8 witches for that

[Druchiilad]

They're not mandatory no, under 1.5k I don't even use them. Is their hitting power mandatory? Yes. You either run them OR the 3+ Masters in Warlocks or my preferred option Cold One bus.

OR if you're a git like me you take 3 Masters in COK unit AND Executioners.

[direweasel]

For something to be "mandatory", I would define that as the army list incapable of winning a battle without them. By that definition, they clearly are not mandatory. I can win without them, and have on several occasions.

They are, however, a very good unit, and useful against a wide array of enemy units that we otherwise might have trouble dealing with.

[Searinox Nagharha]

from my experiance they arent mandatory, High S attacks are however. especially when faced with alot of 1+ AS

[Askador]

from my experiance they arent mandatory, High S attacks are however. especially when faced with alot of 1+ AS

I dont disagree with your here. Just thinking about it.
Whats alot as1+ Models you really face in an Enemy army? 3 Models? 6? Maybe 8? In how many Armys? Empire and Chaos. Anyone else?

Sure there are Charaktes with AS1. But how often they meet a Executeners block?

[Dark reaper]

I heard a High Elf player say that "White Lions come with the Banner of the World Dragon, or they don't come at all." Considering that our executioners don't have the banner, don't have the +2 against shooting and aren't stubborn I find this very interesting. I have used Executioners only a few times with the new book and I have never been impressed. They hit extremely hard, but there are so many things that will just tear through them.

I think Askador raises a good point. You will meet some armies that have 1+ armour saves, but these are mainly WoC and Empire. WoC should not be a hard matchup for DE anyway, and I don't really see what the Executioners will do here anyway. The Empire matchup becomes so much harder if he has HBVGs and you have Executioners, simply due to the fact that you get less support units who are actually able to take out his WMs before they obliterate the Executioners.