Are Executioners mandatory now?

[Dalamar]

I love my frail elves with big honking swords. It's a fluff choice for me. The fact that they kick ass is icing.

[Archamedius]

I think Askador raises a good point. You will meet some armies that have 1+ armour saves, but these are mainly WoC and Empire. WoC should not be a hard matchup for DE anyway, and I don't really see what the Executioners will do here anyway. The Empire matchup becomes so much harder if he has HBVGs and you have Executioners, simply due to the fact that you get less support units who are actually able to take out his WMs before they obliterate the Executioners.

What do you do against Skull crushers or a throgg army, or a Nurgle demon prince of doom or the unkillable BSB? Without executioners how do you handle these opponents?

What do you do against Infernal Gateway or Cacophonic Choir? How do you handle Chariot spam with Gorebeast chariots backed up by Chimeras and such?

WoC is the only army I consistently lose to, I'd like to know what tools we have that make WoC a trivial army because I sure have not found any.

[Dark reaper]

My current list looks like this.

Dreadlord, General, Light Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Dark Steed, Enchanted Shield, Giant Blade, Dawnstone - 258pts
Supreme Sorceress, lvl4 Death, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Hotek - 295pts
Master, Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Lance, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield Cloak of Twilight - 188pts
Master, Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Lance, Armour of Destiny - 184pts
Master, Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Charmed Shield, Lance, Talisman of Preservation, BSB - 211pts
Characters = 1136pts

25 Darkshards, Guardmaster, Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame - 340pts
9 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows - 180pts
5 Dark Riders - 80pts
Core = 600pts

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
5 Harpies - 75pts
5 Shades - 80pts
Special = 435pts

9 Doomfire Warlocks - 225pts
Rare = 225pts

Army Total = 2396pts

I don't really feel like I lack any Executioners as they don't fit my style of play. If they work for you, that is of course great. Against a Throgg Army, I would probably try to use magic (Soublight, Purple Sun) as well as flaming shooting, even though I usually don't play with special characters. For high strength attacks, I use my characters for great effect. They hit hard and they are flexible. The difference between flyers and a slow infantry block with little protection is immense. This style of play might not work for you, or it might not fit your meta, but at least that is how I try to deal with armour.

[Askador]

My current list looks like this.

Dreadlord, General, Light Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Dark Steed, Enchanted Shield, Giant Blade, Dawnstone - 258pts
Supreme Sorceress, lvl4 Death, Dispel Scroll, Ring of Hotek - 295pts
Master, Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Lance, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield Cloak of Twilight - 188pts
Master, Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Lance, Armour of Destiny - 184pts
Master, Dark Pegasus, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Charmed Shield, Lance, Talisman of Preservation, BSB - 211pts
Characters = 1136pts

25 Darkshards, Guardmaster, Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame - 340pts
9 Dark Riders, Shields, Repeater Crossbows - 180pts
5 Dark Riders - 80pts
Core = 600pts

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70pts
5 Harpies - 75pts
5 Shades - 80pts
Special = 435pts

9 Doomfire Warlocks - 225pts
Rare = 225pts

Army Total = 2396pts

I don't really feel like I lack any Executioners as they don't fit my style of play. If they work for you, that is of course great. Against a Throgg Army, I would probably try to use magic (Soublight, Purple Sun) as well as flaming shooting, even though I usually don't play with special characters. For high strength attacks, I use my characters for great effect. They hit hard and they are flexible. The difference between flyers and a slow infantry block with little protection is immense. This style of play might not work for you, or it might not fit your meta, but at least that is how I try to deal with armour.

Even if i play Execs or Cok its still the Charakters killing the 1+ as guys for me.

As i sayed in another post. I dont even know it its a good idea to have the Executeners getting charged by 5 Skullcrushers.
Many peoples play them to handle with those few as 1+ Models.. and its really risky if they finaly meet them.
5 Skullcrsuhers Charging 25 Execs.. i would not bet my money on the Execs.

[Dalamar]

Got my execs charged by 4 Mournfangs today. I actually lost the first round of combat, but out of 4 mournfangs there was only one left, next round saw him very dead.

[Jvh792]

Ok, am I doing it wrong? I just don't like these guys compared to any of our other elite units

[Clockwork]

Why only 1+ AS units? Their S6 makes them equally good at any armour over 6+. There's a lot of stuff that would be covered in that category that aren't Skullcrushers, and which S3, S3AP or S4 units would otherwise struggle to scratch. Plus, there's also the question of wounding - again, S6 is great against anything up to T6 and T7, but specifically against T5 and T4. Soulblight can help in that regard, but you shouldn't put all your eggs in one magical basket.

[Askador]

Why only 1+ AS units? Their S6 makes them equally good at any armour over 6+. There's a lot of stuff that would be covered in that category that aren't Skullcrushers, and which S3, S3AP or S4 units would otherwise struggle to scratch. Plus, there's also the question of wounding - again, S6 is great against anything up to T6 and T7, but specifically against T5 and T4. Soulblight can help in that regard, but you shouldn't put all your eggs in one magical basket.

Wounding on 2 is nice. But other units have more attacks, more Rerolls and dont run from terror tests.

[Archamedius]

Why only 1+ AS units? Their S6 makes them equally good at any armour over 6+. There's a lot of stuff that would be covered in that category that aren't Skullcrushers, and which S3, S3AP or S4 units would otherwise struggle to scratch. Plus, there's also the question of wounding - again, S6 is great against anything up to T6 and T7, but specifically against T5 and T4. Soulblight can help in that regard, but you shouldn't put all your eggs in one magical basket.

Wounding on 2 is nice. But other units have more attacks, more Rerolls and dont run from terror tests.

If you really want ITP and more attacks, put a Death Hag with Witchbrew in the unit. Fixes both issues.

[Askador]

Why only 1+ AS units? Their S6 makes them equally good at any armour over 6+. There's a lot of stuff that would be covered in that category that aren't Skullcrushers, and which S3, S3AP or S4 units would otherwise struggle to scratch. Plus, there's also the question of wounding - again, S6 is great against anything up to T6 and T7, but specifically against T5 and T4. Soulblight can help in that regard, but you shouldn't put all your eggs in one magical basket.

Wounding on 2 is nice. But other units have more attacks, more Rerolls and dont run from terror tests.

If you really want ITP and more attacks, put a Death Hag with Witchbrew in the unit. Fixes both issues.

Well that might work but i would not bet my tactics on a model in the first rank with absolut 0 Protektion.

[Dalamar]

You don't need protection when your enemy is dead

[Jvh792]

I dunno. I'm not a big fan. They kill heavily armored things, but with only 1 attack, they lose combat pretty easily to most cav charges. Even WoC crush them

[Askador]

You don't need protection when your enemy is dead

Tell this the other Elves.. who turn the Death Hag to a Dead Hag before the Execs know it.

[Jvh792]

Only hag is dead do they auto lose frenzy?

[Dalamar]

Yes.
Also execs are not the best against other elves. But, will still beat cav

[Vulcan]

For a few points more you can have Tullaris with a 5+ save. Not much protection, but better than nothing.

Another option is to run 12-wide, which means only enemy hordes will even be able to touch the Hag on the corner, and will strictly limit the number of attacks that can go her way.

[Gidean]

For a few points more you can have Tullaris with a 5+ save. Not much protection, but better than nothing.

Another option is to run 12-wide, which means only enemy hordes will even be able to touch the Hag on the corner, and will strictly limit the number of attacks that can go her way.

Or when she is flanked.... A 12 wide horde starts to get unwieldy in maneuvering.

[Haagrum]

You don't need protection when your enemy is dead

Tell this the other Elves.. who turn the Death Hag to a Dead Hag before the Execs know it.

The same is true for any great weapon-wielding Elves. Our inferior cousins will still take their Swordmasters, White Lions and Wildwood Rangers.

In any event, it's only an issue against 3 armies in the game (including our own). Point the Execs at the Forest Spirits, Phoenixes, Wildwood Rangers, White Lions, Hydras, Kharibdysses or Executioners instead, and you should still get at least one round of extra attacks from the Witchbrew before the Hag dies. You'll already have ignored the Fear and Terror checks thanks to Frenzy. If you absolutely must fight ASF opponents, a boosted Word of Pain or Miasma, a Flesh To Stone or a combined Wildform/Soulblight (all but one of which we can guarantee access to, and which are useful in any case) on the target unit is likely to keep her alive long enough for the Executioners to fight with +1A.

[Vulcan]

For a few points more you can have Tullaris with a 5+ save. Not much protection, but better than nothing.

Another option is to run 12-wide, which means only enemy hordes will even be able to touch the Hag on the corner, and will strictly limit the number of attacks that can go her way.

Or when she is flanked.... A 12 wide horde starts to get unwieldy in maneuvering.

If your Executioner Horde is getting flanked that often, you have bigger problems than whether a Hag dies or not.

[AWdeV]

This makes me wonder. What would be the best way to counter large hordes of executioners and their lesser-elf equivalents?

Bunch of witches in their flank? Take advantage of the fact that execs can't use ASF, tear them to shreds before they can strike back?

Also, something else I recently thought of but don't know where to ask. Execs strike on their initative because ASF + ASL = strike on initiative, right? So what happens if I augment them with birona's timewarp (or whatever spell that was)? Do they get ASF + ASL + ASF and allow them to strike first again? Because, if so, that would be pretty amusing. Especially against other elves with great weapons.

[Phierlihy]

Special rules don't stack.

To handle the horde I would...
shoot them off the table
magic them off the table
throw an unkillable Dreadlord at them
drop flame templates on them
feed them Harpies and/or lure them around with their Frenzy
flank them
avoid them
hit them with my own horde
lure their own units in front of them so they can't charge
hide in a building and then exit out the back
force them into a forest where they aren't Steadfast
or something like that...

[AWdeV]

Aww man, bummer.

How "unkillable" does a dreadlord have to be to stand up to a horde of executioners though? They hit hard.

[Vulcan]

The Unkillable Dreadlord won't work against Executioners. Even going all-out defensive and getting 1+rr/4++ (as good as it gets for a DE in melee), Executioners drop that to 4+rr/4++... and killing blow can potentially take it down to just 4++.

9 Executioners will put 4.375 wounds onto the DL before saves (1.044 wounds after saves), so they'll kill him in three rounds even without killing blow. And there's an 87.5% chance per round of a killing blow coming up - which translates into a 43.75% chance of him dying from it per round, so two-and-a-half rounds until KB gets him. So it's pretty much guaranteed he's got three rounds to break them before he dies.

And heaven help him if Tullaris or a Brewhag (or both!) are in the unit.

[Phierlihy]

By my math, a Dreadlord on a Dark Pegasus (immune to Killing Blow btw) getting attacked by 12 Executioners per round will suffer 0.65ish wounds per turn discounting him challenging our champions and other characters in the unit. Assuming he and his trusty steed kill a lowly 3 Executioners per turn, he'll kill 15 Executioners over 5 rounds of combat before he dies (which is why I run a level 2 with the Lore of Life to really irritate my opponents) in which time one would think you could hit them with something else and beat the tar out of them.

I think an 'unkillable Dreadlord' would welcome Tularris or whomever because he should slaughter him pretty darn easily!

[Gidean]

Today I my dreadlord with full mundane, the enchanted shield, ogre blade and ring of hotek was with a unit of 30 Executioners.

Plague wind took the unit down to 20. Then a Nurgle demon Prince and Gorebeast chariot slammed into their front. With some spell help my Dreadlord killed the DP after two rounds of combat challenge and the unit broke the Gorebeast Chariot. Then 20 Nurgle warriors slammed into my Dreadlord's flank. There was only one rank of executioners by then. Tied combat and reformed to face. While fighting the warriors to the front the previous Gorebeast Chariot had rallied and came back for more hitting my executioners in the flank. When all was said and done I beat both units breaking the warriors but stayed in combat with the Gorebeast Chariot. Next round I killed off the chariot with only my Dreadlord remaining. Executioners can be amazing with Glittering Robes on them.

I like Executioners. A big unit can take a lot of abuse.