Shades vs. Waywatchers

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Gidean
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Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Gidean »

Discuss. Particularly with respect to them combating one another. :)

I'll start. Shades are WS 5. Waywatchers are WS 4. They need 4s to hit us. We need 3s. Feel free to expand on merits beyond their mutual combat.
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Dalamar
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Dalamar »

Against one another Shades have an obvious upper hand.

Against a variety of targets Waywatchers win hands down. The no save arrows will sow terror among small units of heavily armored cavalry/monstrous cavalry.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Gidean »

Dalamar wrote:Against one another Shades have an obvious upper hand.

Against a variety of targets Waywatchers win hands down. The no save arrows will sow terror among small units of heavily armored cavalry/monstrous cavalry.



10 shots hitting on 4s. Wounding on 4s or maybe 5s? Hm... Maybe.

Shades are cheaper. Shades can take full commands. Especially a musician. Shade MAY purchase light armor...

Funny how Waywatchers cannot buy enchanted arrow upgrades.
Last edited by Gidean on Sun May 04, 2014 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Dalamar »

I don't know exact stats of Waywatchers so I can't be 100% accurate here, but Shades are cheaper. Have same benefits of skirmish and typically soft cover for forests. They likely have same BS5.

With these details, Multiple shot (2) is always better than. Given that Waywatchers have the ability to do the same (and I believe their bows are also armor piercing even when rapid firing) it boils down to range (6" makes little difference when you can march and shoot) and points cost. The difference in points is rather significant for a T3 W1 model.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Gidean »

Oh you don't have the book yet? Allow me.

Waywatcher Rare Unit Cost 20 No upgrade save for champ for 10 points. 1 better BS

M:5 WS:4 BS:5 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:5 A:1 Ld:8

Comes with Asrai bow and two hand weapons. No upgrades. No armor option.

Can make multi-shot (2) shots OR the ignore AP shot. All must choose the same shot for that turn.

Cannot use any of the enchanted arrows.

So the ONLY thing they got going for them versus our Shades is the armor ignoring thing. Deadly to Empire, Silverhelm and Cold one Knights. Not so much to monstrous cav who can absorb a few wounds.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Entreri bloodletter »

I actually think that waywatchers are going to be very powerful, the ability to ignore armor completely is very good and not to be overlooked. I expect to see two units of 10 in many wood elf players lists. Yes they are more expensive but for versatility I think it is worth it. Shades cannot do anything casualty wise vs a 1+ save unit and barely scratches a 2+ save unit, way watchers on the other hand are killing 2-3 models every turn, this can create panic in their opponent and will cause unwary players to make bad decisions to get out of the arrow storm. Even the range is significant because they can be in short range up to 15" away, it may not seem like a lot but it does make a difference on the battlefield. Wood elves also have access to hand of glory which could be devastating on a unit of ten, imagine 10 armor ignoring shots hitting on 2's :shock:

All that being said I think they are appropriately costed, especially since they are very fragile and will die to almost anything- like most of the wood (elf) units.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Amboadine »

The fact that shades are significantly cheaper naked is a huge plus in favour add in the additional HW to arm them on a par is obviously becomes closer. The options to be tooled up with GW and armour to fit the dedicated role that we may wish to assign them is also a good point in the shaded favour.

Being rare is also a negative for them as it limits the options and number they could take. Especially as they are competing with the ubiquitous Eagles and Treeman. On the plus side, they have far nicer base models. And the waystalker model is one of my favourites.

It is definitely a little strange that their elite scouts have worse missile options than their core. Even a couple of types of arrow options would have made a significant impact on their worth.

In essence, I think Shades take the crown stat wise, and waywatchers model wise.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Thraundil »

Shades have an obvious advantage when it comes to war machine hunting, chaff wars and hands down face to face, since they are cheaper, and are special. However, simply the fact that 10 waywatchers, given a few rounds of shooting, can essentially brutalise any heavy cavalry unit, gives the wood elf player a MASSIVE amount of board control. You always get to deploy them where you want them, and each of them are essentially a weak, short range bolt thrower. Shall we compare numbers? Lets call the bolt thrower and waywathcer at long range alike, just for simplicity.

Bolt thrower: ½ hit, 2+ to wound so 0,41 wounds. If volley: 3 hits, 2 wounds, 0,66 unsaved if target is 1+. For 70 points, that is.

70 points worth of way watchers:
3½ shot. Movement, long range. BS5 makes that 4+ to hit, giving 1,75 hits. 3's or 4's to wound, between 0,875 and 0,58 wounds. With no save.

Now, in a more realistic scenario, heavy cavalry will sometimes be in 2 ranks, giving the bolt thrower a little something back, and vs MC you do get multiple wounds. Nevertheless, taking into consideration the waywatchers will always be where you need them, can move and shoot so circumventing most cover, and will often also be in short range, I'd say they look pretty damned scary, and will definitely soak a lot of attention from armor reliant opponents.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Gidean »

Way Watchers are essentially a one trick pony. ONLY good against heavy armor. Our Shades, as pointed out have more versatility. However both units can foil the opponent's Vanguard moves. The question is, how many Wood Elf players will plum for more than a unit of 10 way watchers? That's two hundred points! In units of 5 they just won't score enough wounds. Whereas our shades in units of 5 can still achieve their roles. Warmachine hunting, march blocking, harassment with ten BS 5 shots. Maybe even mage assassination charging in with two hand weapons.

From a DE perspective a single decent doombolt will ruin the Way Watchers unit. If not that a fireball. Any number of missile spells. Even Blade Wind will take out a 1/3 of them with their WS4.

They are just too easy to kill for their point cost and role in the game. Against a Skaven army, Orc and Goblin Army, Ogre Army, any army not known for high armor, what will they contribute? It will be like wasted points in magic defense when you face Dwarves.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by lil' fisty »

In small numbers, Waywatchers win. Once you start getting to 10+ model counts, all those shades are a dreadful sight to see, especially with the aforementioned point discrepancy.

Shades and Dark Riders are still in my opinion the most versatile elven shooting combo out there, apart from against 2+ or 1+ saves.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Gerner »

Remember Wood Elves can also get Scouts that can choose Arrows. The Hagbane (Poison) Arrow on Scouts is a good way to take out Warmachines early. :)
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Killerk »

Well IMHO shades and WW are total different units, with total different roles to play.
But generally WW do something that eaves struggle with, they deal with armour. Also if enemy is not armoured they can also deal with them, maxim them a great unit, especially combined with shadow magic.

The dilemma I have is, will they be taken over cheaper but specialised units of GG?

Also I think that small units of 6 might be frequently seen in a few months time. My prediction is people will load up on them, then they will come to a conclusion they are too expensive, and will be dropped. But after a while they will return as versitile support units.

WW are not going to hunt warmachines, machine block, or be a nuisance in the back of enemy lines, as shades are used.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Dragonarmy »

Waywatchers will be included as long as this high armor meta continues. Shades are great. As far as shooting, waywatchers can do everything shades can do with the advantage of longer range. However, WW stronger attack is the ignore armor.

Now if you are a shooty WE player, lowering toughness through magic will be paramount.

There will be lists with 2 units of 10 waywatchers and they will give WE a strong presence against high armor opponents.

Imagine a unit of T 2 knights because of a debuff suffering 20 shots, getting hit on 3's and wounded on 3's

That's 45% chance to kill for each shot.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Clockwork »

Yeah. 20 Waywatchers hitting at long range is ~14 hits. Wounding Cold One Knights on 4s they kill 7(!). Against something a little tougher, like Skullcrushers, they'll still do 4-5 wounds - per round. Better once they get into half range, which with Scout and M5 Skirmish isn't going to be difficult.

But the real key is that they can fire twice with AP as well, making them just as worthwhile at thinning out big rank and file units. 40 BS5 AP shots is a lot...

For that reason I can see 20 of them remaining a staple for some time. How the meta will deal with this is still unclear (bigger units? More chaff?), but there has been some initial talk about investing in T5+ multi-wound models.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Joey_boy »

I used to run 20 WW when they could KB characters on pegasii as they where the only real option in the book to deal with them before they hunted down and killed your small units of elf's. I cant see myself playing any less then 2*9 WW with the new book, they are just too good! The only thing that Shades do better is really big units with characters in them, but then again there is no reason to do that with WW since the Welf characters don't really want to be in a WW unit. They want to be on ponys and join the sisters, zipping around from wood to wood casting magic.

I have been looking at Shadow or Metal for my lvl4 and I think both lores compliment the WW(and the rest of the army) very well. Against armor Metal just adds more damage, and against infantry it strips their save down letting the WW use the multishoots. Shadow will just do shadow things like it's nobody's business! :)
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by marcopollo »

Seems like the lore of life is going to climb the popularity chart (especially in combat lists). Being able to buff T or provide regen, simultaneously healing wounds due to the WE sniper character skills, and killing T elves in woods is the easy choice. Dwellers is just more trouble for them too.

I suppose shadow and dark would help with BS hexes too.

It will be interesting to see how the WE players in our group respond.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Dalamar »

Yeah, Life does seem like an anti-wood elf lore. Just make sure you can keep those casters alive.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by marcopollo »

Sure. But that applies to anyone. I've only read it over once (and rather quickly at that). But those lords and heros that get to shoot you at st3 even before turn 1 is pretty harsh (no armor saves). Dawnstone BSB, down to one wound on before turn 1 is a pain. If I was a WE player, I'd make sure to have a death mage to finish the wounded off.

That is just elf whining here. But skink priests, human wizards, etc will feel this pain too.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Amboadine »

I believe they only get to shoot at the general if he is within 36" and with LOS before you start. So your BSB is safe, at least until turn 1...
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Dalamar »

Yeah, the free shot is only one, regardless of number of models with the rule, and it can only target the general. A good ward save will keep the damage down to minimum.
7th edition army book:
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Gidean »

Dalamar wrote:Yeah, the free shot is only one, regardless of number of models with the rule, and it can only target the general. A good ward save will keep the damage down to minimum.



Or since you will likely be taking "Life" magic to counter the Woodies, you can heal him. :) But yes a ward save in almost mandatory for the general. Being on a Peg can make that free shot need a very lucky roll.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Dalamar »

Still

If you get that shot hit, and have a handful of way stalkers... it might be tempting to take down the general on turn 1. I'm sure we'll hear stories of that happening and cries of cheese and comp that will follow... or wait, the cries of comp are already here and the book isn't even a week old.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by LordAK »

I am more interested to know how the Waywatchers would affect our army. The way I see it, there's nothing much to be scared except for the CoKnights and the 1+ heroes that go solo. Is there anything else I'm missing?
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Gidean »

Dalamar wrote:Still

If you get that shot hit, and have a handful of way stalkers... it might be tempting to take down the general on turn 1. I'm sure we'll hear stories of that happening and cries of cheese and comp that will follow... or wait, the cries of comp are already here and the book isn't even a week old.


Can you tell me how this is different than a unit of Ogre Maneaters all armed with brace of pistols and having the scout and sniper rule? Sure they might need 5s to hit (-1 for sniper and -1 for multi-shot) but that is usually at least 12 shots at str 4 with AP shooting the character.
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Re: Shades vs. Waywatchers

Post by Clockwork »

LordAK wrote:I am more interested to know how the Waywatchers would affect our army. The way I see it, there's nothing much to be scared except for the CoKnights and the 1+ heroes that go solo. Is there anything else I'm missing?


BS5 Double Shot with Armour Peircing. Not good for T3 5+
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