RBT - go big or go home?

[Bloodshakes]

I finaly, finaly win with my warhammer army. I have 3 wins in a row now, against 3 different players/armies. (1000-1800 points)

The units which I think are really good in the dark elf army, (according to my small amount of victories and the overall power of them)

Shades
Dark riders
Peg Master
Supreme Sorceres (lvl4) and Dark Magic, yes indeed. The Lore of Dark Magic has served me very well.
My Kharibdyss did really good this time.
and the corsairs where so-so.

I also had 1 RBT. That thing did almost nothing and got killed with ease. It shot here and there a high elf, or a few skaven in another battle but it didn't got the 70 points back. That makes me think I would need at least 2 or 3 RBT because 1 isn't worth it? But it did some psycological stuff to my opponent in diployment. it also lures his chaff or fast cav. He sacrifices 2 turns with a unit of fast cav for getting my 70 points. What do you guys think about it?

[direweasel]

Yeah, part of it is strength in numbers, part of it is target selection. If you're shooting at a block of 30 guys with 1 bolt thrower, you're wasting your time even if you kill 4 or 5.

The idea is to think of shooting as a chance to clear chaff, and to force leadership tests. Let's say you're facing another dark elf army. The first thing you want to shoot at will be a unit of harpies, especially if they're not close to their general. Ld6, T3, you kill 1/4 of them and you have a good chance of making them run away. After that, look at Dark Riders, you only have to kill 2 in a unit of 5 to force a leadership test. Now, Dark Elves have decent leadership, but a test is still a test. They have 0 chance of failing a leadership test they don't have to take.

3 or 4 bolt throwers can clear more chaff and force more tests. Or you can concentrate their fire on a bigger unit to thin a rank or two so that when it hits combat, it's not as scary. Don't think of them just as whether or not they get their points back, think of whether they can help tip the battlefield in your favor.

[direweasel]

Another cool thing about bolt throwers is that in deployment you can control the battlefield somewhat. In other words, if you deploy it early, it plays mind games with the opponent, especially if you have a bunch of them. I've more or less won games while doing deployment just because you force your opponent into decisions, and then make them pay for it. Not sure how to give precise examples on this, but once you've played enough times, you'll see what I mean.

[Searinox Nagharha]

depends on the Tourny rules. few tournies i have been to require you to drop all your WM at once. so while you can still scare your enemy into hiding his big models you cant rly outdeploy them with it

[Demetrius]

depends on the Tourny rules. few tournies i have been to require you to drop all your WM at once. so while you can still scare your enemy into hiding his big models you cant rly outdeploy them with it

Thats a standard rule mate

I like two or three bolt throwers in my lists, they are just so useful for board control and clearing chaff, and some times they can spike with single shots and take out big targets.

[direweasel]

depends on the Tourny rules. few tournies i have been to require you to drop all your WM at once. so while you can still scare your enemy into hiding his big models you cant rly outdeploy them with it

Sure you can. Say you took 4 bolt throwers, and you drop them early on, all in a bunch on the same side of the table. That is going to dictate to some degree what your opponent does in their deployment, which in turn if you plan for that you can take advantage of it and give yourself favorable matchups.

Again, it's tough to get more specific than that without knowing the details of your army, your opponent's army, the terrain, and so on. But it can be done. Basically it's a detailed thought process of outfoxing your opponent before the first turn even begins. Bolt throwers can help with that because they can dictate your opponents deployment in many cases.

[Red...]

1 Reaper works well for me. It provides supporting fire against enemy chaff, while not acting as a points sync. My opponent either has to try to neutralize it (which typically takes up more points on his part to get rid of a fairly cheap unit of mine) or let it just sit there all game, chewing off a piece here and then. It's also great for taking out lone enemy characters.

[Eldarwonderland]

I think the OP stated one very good reason why you should have one or two.

"He sacrifices 2 turns with a unit of fast cav for getting my 70 points."

... with the chance of turning the RBT round and killing the very unit that is trying to get the RBT in the first place, thus a net gain in points

[Omnichron]

It's also about being a threat against those solo characters. With one or two bolt throwers your opponent might hide his characters behind cover most of the game, which means you have the advantage in movement.

My RBTs loves firing at Daemonprinces.

[Daeron]

I have made a similar observation in the past as well. One RBT doesn't feel like it's packing a punch, to the point it feels soft. I tried to see if I can work this out with maths.



The lone RBT

Single RBT vs Dark Riders

I'm using Dark Riders as our RBT opponent, for the joy of infighting and because I know them so well. A single volley will offer a 72% chance to force a panic test on a unit of 5 on short range, and 50% on long range. But the chance to actually wipe the unit before they charge into combat is small: 3% if you get one volley on short range, 33% if you get one volley on long range and a volley on short range.
So, in spite of the obvious destruction it would wreck upon a single DR unit, there's a fair shot the DR unit reaches combat where 1 charging DR beats 2 crew members in close combat... unless the manage to kill the riders.

Here's all the maths:
- Single volley at short range
- Single volley at long range
- Volley at long range and short range combined
- Combat power of the crew vs Dark Riders


We add all these scores to two scenarios.
1. One volley at short range from the RBT, followed by close combat


The RBT has minimal chances of taking out the Dark Riders, meaning if the panic test strategy fails there's only a small chance to win.

2. One volley at long range, followed by a volley at long range from the RBT, followed by close combat


There's still only a 40% chance they'll smash the unit.

1 RBT against Dreadspears

Let's assume the dreadspears are in short range. Even then, the impact of a volley shot has its limits:


That's not to say it hasn't value, but it only shows over several rounds, for example after three rounds:



1 RBT against Cold Ones

A single volley at long range will give us:

A single bolt in the flank will give us:


This is hardly impressive, against any unit of cold ones. Certainly not enough to make the difference before the cold ones make the difference.


Magic and a single RBT

Aside from putting pressure on your opponent, a single RBT isn't as impressive, but you have to look at it from a bigger perspective. A single RBT may cause some mayhem over multiple rounds, but it can also function as a finishing move. In particular, when you have doombolts in the game, it can become a good finish or safety net.

1 Doombolt, 1 RBT and Dark Riders

A single doombolt is nice, but still has a risk of fluffing or failing to wipe the enemy. There's a 50%-50% chance it won't "wipe" a unit of DR's. Add in a single volley from the RBT and the opposing DR unit has a 14% survival chance. That's assuming they pass 2 panic tests in a single turn.

The maths:
- Single doombolt vs 5 DRs
- 1 Doombolt + 1 RBT vs 5 DRs

1 Doombolt, 1 RBT vs Cold Ones

Neither is going to smash Cold Ones unless you get lucky, but combined, they can seriously harm the unit.


Or, if you get a single bolt in the flank:


The Maths:
- 1 Doombolt vs COKs
- 1 doombolt + 1 RBT volley vs 5 COKs


1 Doombolt, 1 RBT vs a Gyrocopter

I like to use the Gyrocopter, because it's a lovely unit from one of my frequent opponents, but it adds the backup a RBT gives to Doombolt.
A single doombolt vs the Gyro will give a 43% chance the Gyro survives. Adding a volley decreases the odds to 24%.

The maths:
- just the doombolt
- Doombolt+RBT

As a bonus, if the Doombolt does gun down the Gyro, you can tempt a single shot at another one

An RBT is never a force on its own, but it is always a good firing support unit. In numbers, they can be a force to reckon with.

[Bloodshakes]

Thanks a lot for the awesome answers guys! Daeron, you have made a really cool observation! I won't delete the single RBT in my list, maybe I'll add one more for backup and extra help. I already have a nice shooting fase and the warlocks are great either? I only use dark riders for cav.

But again, many thanks to all of you

[Daeron]

Warlocks are very good... Almost cheesy. Well, no, they are cheesy. But fun.

[Dalamar]

I figured this methodology... seems to work for me.
How many points do you have to spend on artillery?
150?
2 Reapers
250?
3 reapers
300?
2 Scourgerunners

[direweasel]

blech - no thanks, i'd rather have bolt throwers than scourgerunners.

[Bloodshakes]

I figured this methodology... seems to work for me.
How many points do you have to spend on artillery?
150?
2 Reapers
250?
3 reapers
300?
2 Scourgerunners

150 points on artillery in a 1500 points game?

[Akholrak]

In my 2,500 point list, I always take 2, sometimes 3. I find them necessary to take out chaff and improve board control, more so if you are playing with Frenzied units. I always find myself using the multishot option as I can't seem to hit or Wound anything with the straight shot, and if by some miracle I do, I score one Wound.

[Bloodshakes]

In my 2,500 point list, I always take 2, sometimes 3. I find them necessary to take out chaff and improve board control, more so if you are playing with Frenzied units. I always find myself using the multishot option as I can't seem to hit or Wound anything with the straight shot, and if by some miracle I do, I score one Wound.

Me too, I always use multishot

[Killerk]

The magic number for me is 3. with 4 I find it diffict to get a good deployment of all 4, one is usally in a worse position.
Also I drop my usally as the first or second drop. If terrain allows it. Also I prefer to drop one on about 1/3 of the table lenght of the centre, adding the last one to the side where I dont want my opponent deploying.
In many games this lets me controlnot only deployment but also movement of my opponents.

Generally most players drop their warmachines last, if you drop them first youll put your opponent in an unfamiliar territory. and allow you to make an assesment if your opponent is making a run at you warmachines, or not. This the allows you to choose if you give up 2 RBTs and go after his army, or you ambush him whil he tries to kill the RBTs.

[Thraundil]

I singleshot monstrous cav or single heroes with 2+ or better save. The rest you might as well multi.

And... Personally, I always take 4. In some games they dont do much, but in other games... Board control is key!

[Curse_Bearer]

I singleshot monstrous cav or single heroes with 2+ or better save. The rest you might as well multi.

And... Personally, I always take 4. In some games they dont do much, but in other games... Board control is key!

This I've found to be completely true. Skullcrushers, Demis, anything relying on that 1+ 3W to get them across the board. Four shots on one unit, if you can manage, has worked really well for me. On average it won't wipe them out (unless you're lucky and like making your opponent cry) but they will severely diminish their combat potential, allowing for easier mop-up.

Everything else just gets 24 shots to the face.

[Dalamar]

blech - no thanks, i'd rather have bolt throwers than scourgerunners.

Suit yourself, I'll take your free reaper points while my scourgerunners evade harm.

[Thraundil]

blech - no thanks, i'd rather have bolt throwers than scourgerunners.

Suit yourself, I'll take your free reaper points while my scourgerunners evade harm.

Dalamar, you have a certain habit of writing your viewpoints in extremes the reapers are by no means free. If you dedicate a lot of units to reach my backfield and take my RBTs, it means my centre is stronger than yours. If you send only small units to my backline, the RBT's will have every chance of shooting them off, or at least break even.

As for the shooting quality: a normal scourgerunner vs 2 RBT's (with 10 points to spare)

Utility: RBT's can fire volleys or single shots. This means that only versus monsters will the scourgerunner have an edge, shooting wise. So lets compare there. Of course the scourgerunner can move, which means its less vulnerable to melees, but we will get to that.

Lets assume long range for simplicity. Even with the chariot moving, you will rarely get within 12" since you want it to evade harm The target monster is T6.
2 RBTs: Singleshot at 4+ to hit (long range) gives 1 hit, ½ wound giving d3 = 1 wound in total
Multishot at 4+ to hit (long range) gives 6 hits, 1 wound in total. (If the monster has an armour save better than 5+, singleshoot it).

1 scourgerunner: 5+ to hit (long range, moved) gives 0,3333 hits, 0,2222 wounds which is doubled to 0,4444 from the d3. Then theres a further 50/50 chance for one more wound, which again depends on the 5+ to hit, so 0,1665 wounds more for a total of 0,61 wounds.

vs T7, the scourgerunner wins out due to the higher strength, but not by a huge margin. Vs T6, the standard bolt thrower is superior to the specialised monster hunter chariot... Go figure.

As for the "evade harm" argument. You're right, a scourgerunner is alot harder to pick up with melee units. Its a LOT easier to pick up on range, though. In fact, how would a bolt thrower fare against it? T4 with only a 5+ armor save means I'd happily dedicate a turn of shooting from 3 RBT's: 4+ to hit for 9 hits, 4,5 wounds with no save. The scourgerunner is dead dead dead. 150 easy points, yum!



I get that there is personal preference. And perhaps, where you play, opponents are happy to let the scourgerunner mess about and wreck their monsters. Had it been T5 and with a 3+ armor save for the same cost, I might consider taking it. Even if it was just S4, it would suddenly become a viable chariot. But at T4 with 5+ save, even a slightly above average soul quench takes it right out of the game. Way too pricy for that. You need big guns or high volume to hit an RBT. You need just normal guns to take out a scourgerunner.

[Red...]

For 180 points (just 30 more than a scourgerunner), you can get both a chariot (T5, 3+ save, S5 with D6+1 impact hits on the charge, and 2 RxBs to boot) and a Reaper.

For me, that's infinitely better than a T4, 5+ save bolt thrower that is easy to kill through shooting or magic, has no multishot capabilities, and will usually struggle to hit if its moving.

But then I tend to avoid building avoidance lists, so it's all a matter of preference.

[direweasel]

blech - no thanks, i'd rather have bolt throwers than scourgerunners.

Suit yourself, I'll take your free reaper points while my scourgerunners evade harm.

Sure , they evade harm. They also do very little in return. They're way too unreliable for me. If they work for you, great.

[Dalamar]

Scourgerunner has twice the save, twice the wounds and triple the attacks in combat. While reapers tend to fire a salvo off at whatever is hunting them and unless they wipe them in a volley, even a single fast cav can cause them issues, scourgerunner will just charge, kill, and overrun into a favorable position. Once there hitting on 4+ is not a problem.

While my reapers are usually dead by turn 3 due to combination of magic, shooting and war machine hunters, i have only lost a scourgerunner once, and inky because i was really tempted with a 3+ shot at a demon prince.