Going 1st or 2nd: maximise advantage / minimise disadvantage

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toots
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Going 1st or 2nd: maximise advantage / minimise disadvantage

Post by toots »

Hi there,

Something that's been puzzling me for a while is the idea of how to do the above; i.e. maximise your advantage when gong first, and minimising your disadvantage if you happen to roll to go second.

for example, is it a case of deploying out of range of dwarven crossbows / organ guns for instance? deploying everything on the 12" line then vanguarding your DRs to screen the WE's in case enemy archers go first, deploying units more than 6" for panic etc.

strikes me that it's a massive advantage in 8th to go first, and i wonder if there are any advantages to going second.

would be great if you could help me out on this topic.


thanks,

toots
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Amboadine
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Re: Going 1st or 2nd: maximise advantage / minimise disadvan

Post by Amboadine »

Well there is always the last turn objective grabbing.

Honestly I think it really depends heavily on a number of factors such as both armies and the specifics of the scenario. Need to grab a watchtower, try and go first and hold it. Need to get units to a specific objective uncontested, set yourself up to get there last turn if possible (assuming that you don't need to dislodge anyone of course).

If it is a straight out open battlefield fight with no really objectives then go first if possible. However if you are targeting to go second make sure you deploy your units in such a way that you will take the minimum of damage first turn. Shelter your objective grabbers and vulnerable units. We have the speed to get across the board very quickly if necessary.
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Marchosias
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Re: Going 1st or 2nd: maximise advantage / minimise disadvan

Post by Marchosias »

Going second gives you a great freedom in your last turn because your opponent will do *nothing* that you do not allow him to. You can put a lone sorceress right in front of his uber unit and still lose nothing. No need to worry about charge arcs, spell ranges and whatever anymore. This can allow for some nice last turn snipes at times.

In deployment, most of the time you can protect your valuable units from first turn harm somehow, for example by screening them by a more durable or expendable unit or by deploying them out of range or out of sight. For example, let us say your crossbows face heavy return fire. In your deployment zone, there is a hill on the 12 inches line so you place them behind. If your enemy goes first, he will be unable to shoot them. Once you get to play, you walk up the hill and shoot down the juiciest target available. I feel this somewhat reduces the impact of going first or second: if you go first, you can draw first blood but everything juicy will be hidden. If you go second, you probably have a bigger choice of targets as something might have left the cover to try to do something. In some cases at least.

Of course, there are times where going first is a clear advantage. A good example will be a cannon shoot off - if you place your cannons to destroy the opposing ones and end up going second, you will probably have no cannons left when you get to play. On the other hand, an ironblaster deploys behind a hill, then moves to its side to see exactly one cannon, shoots it down right away, then proceeds to the next - and with some luck it can destroy any number of enemy cannons without suffering return fire. Of course, misfires complicate things ocasionally.

In general, I prefer to always assume it will by my opponent who goes first as it allows to avoid unnecessary losses. And I think that if you can prevent damage by deploying a bit further back (in a wood for example), it is usually worth it - though it depends heavily on the specific matchup. If you are unable to hide anyway due to bad terrain, deploy for maximum offense. If your opponent can do nothing meaningful anyway, no need to hide. And so on.
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Re: Going 1st or 2nd: maximise advantage / minimise disadvan

Post by marcopollo »

One of the reasons why bretonia is so handicapped in this edition is this very issue.

One of the main things about these games is risk/reward. Mitigating losses on the first turn deployment is a conservative approach that has a low risk/reward aspect. But sometimes it is good to be agressive in deployment for a couple of reasons. First, if the reward is high and the risk is moderate, then go for it. Secondly, agressive deployment signals your confidence to you opponent who might over compensate in his deployment giving the rest of your battle plan advantages elsewhere.

This is why the games are so entertaining. I put my CoT peglord in a juicy spot to absorb cannon fire, but the opponent does know if he has the CoT. Shoot at him and waste other targets or shoot elsewhere and let him mess your backfield up.
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Re: Going 1st or 2nd: maximise advantage / minimise disadvan

Post by toots »

OK well thanks for your input guys. Interesting point about having the last turn; the game will generally be won or lost by then obviously but it's a good point none the less.

Also good point re CoT man.
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Re: Going 1st or 2nd: maximise advantage / minimise disadvan

Post by Red... »

It really depends on the army. Against armies with long range shooting or magic, going second can be very tough to do. Have your front line troops savaged by stone throwers, long bowmen, and cannons before they can even move, and then again on the opponent's next turn for certain? No thank you: going second is indeed a massive disadvantage. But against armies with little of these things - going second has little real disadvantages, while having the final turn can be beneficial.
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Re: Going 1st or 2nd: maximise advantage / minimise disadvan

Post by Calisson »

If your opponent cannot reach you at distance, go second and enjoy the last turn.

If your opponent can reach you at distance and you are stronger in melee, go first.
If you outshoot your opponent and can reach him, go first.
If the deployment is random and you're badly positioned, go first.
If going first allows you to capture the tower where you will be difficult to dislodge, go first.
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