Was my army too cheesy?
Moderator: The Dread Knights
Was my army too cheesy?
Recently I played a 2250 DE vs DE clash, in which I fielded the following army:
1 Master with ring of darkness, great weapon, full mundane armour
13 Black Guard, with full command, standard of HG and Ring of Hotek
1 Assassin with rending stars, rune of khaine and additional hand weapon
1 Master as BSB with Banner of Nagarythe
1 Lvl 1 Sorceress with 2 dispels
1 Assassin with rending stars, rune of khaine and additional hand weapon
14 RxBs with full command
10 RxBs with shields
10 RxBs with shields
4 Reaper Bolt throwers
5 Shades with great weapons
5 Harpies
5 Dark Riders with RxBs + musician
5 Dark Riders without RxBs + musician
As the game progressed my opponent seemed to get a bit irked by my army, particularly when he realised that my big unit of crossbowmen had an assassin, was unbreakable and had +4 SCR despite being just two ranks (rank + banner + BSB + Banner of Nagarythe). But then maybe he shouldn't have been so confident as to assume my Crossbowmen wouldn't charge his executioners
Part of the reason I love playing dark elves though is because of the suprises you get to drop on people. I love how we can hide many of our darkest weapons ("cast on an 8? what's that, two 4s? that's a miscast I'm afraid" ). I thought having the banner of nagarythe in that unit was a gamble, one that in this case paid off. I had thought it was usually a soft choice, so was suprised by the objection to it. I didn't feel that my army was particularly cheesy, but maybe I'm wrong here?
I know that ring of hotek and ring of darkness are both powerful, but frankly I get fed up with a) folk at my gaming club turning up with huge magic (he brought one level 4 and two level 2s) and b) annihilating my black guard on the first turn before they get to do anything. Similarly, I know assassins are annoying, but surely if you're playing against a DE player you should know you probably have it coming...
Also, I know I took a lot of missile fire, but the game had been pre-set in advance and Dark Elves are particularly vulnerable to missile fire, so that's what I went with. It's not like it was as bad as a typical empire or gunline army though...
His army coincidentally was along the lines of:
1 Level 4 sorceress
1 Assassin with ahw
16 Executioners with full command
5 Cold One Knights with champion
5 Dark Riders
1 Level 2 Sorceress
14 RxBs
1 Level 2 Sorceress with dagger
19 Warriors
2 Chariots
8 Shades with additional hand weapons
1 Hydra
12 Warriors with shields and musician
2 Reaper Bolt throwers
(oh, and yes I know that he has 5 special choices, I identified that at the game start but agreed to let him keep them )
Any thoughts much appreciated
1 Master with ring of darkness, great weapon, full mundane armour
13 Black Guard, with full command, standard of HG and Ring of Hotek
1 Assassin with rending stars, rune of khaine and additional hand weapon
1 Master as BSB with Banner of Nagarythe
1 Lvl 1 Sorceress with 2 dispels
1 Assassin with rending stars, rune of khaine and additional hand weapon
14 RxBs with full command
10 RxBs with shields
10 RxBs with shields
4 Reaper Bolt throwers
5 Shades with great weapons
5 Harpies
5 Dark Riders with RxBs + musician
5 Dark Riders without RxBs + musician
As the game progressed my opponent seemed to get a bit irked by my army, particularly when he realised that my big unit of crossbowmen had an assassin, was unbreakable and had +4 SCR despite being just two ranks (rank + banner + BSB + Banner of Nagarythe). But then maybe he shouldn't have been so confident as to assume my Crossbowmen wouldn't charge his executioners
Part of the reason I love playing dark elves though is because of the suprises you get to drop on people. I love how we can hide many of our darkest weapons ("cast on an 8? what's that, two 4s? that's a miscast I'm afraid" ). I thought having the banner of nagarythe in that unit was a gamble, one that in this case paid off. I had thought it was usually a soft choice, so was suprised by the objection to it. I didn't feel that my army was particularly cheesy, but maybe I'm wrong here?
I know that ring of hotek and ring of darkness are both powerful, but frankly I get fed up with a) folk at my gaming club turning up with huge magic (he brought one level 4 and two level 2s) and b) annihilating my black guard on the first turn before they get to do anything. Similarly, I know assassins are annoying, but surely if you're playing against a DE player you should know you probably have it coming...
Also, I know I took a lot of missile fire, but the game had been pre-set in advance and Dark Elves are particularly vulnerable to missile fire, so that's what I went with. It's not like it was as bad as a typical empire or gunline army though...
His army coincidentally was along the lines of:
1 Level 4 sorceress
1 Assassin with ahw
16 Executioners with full command
5 Cold One Knights with champion
5 Dark Riders
1 Level 2 Sorceress
14 RxBs
1 Level 2 Sorceress with dagger
19 Warriors
2 Chariots
8 Shades with additional hand weapons
1 Hydra
12 Warriors with shields and musician
2 Reaper Bolt throwers
(oh, and yes I know that he has 5 special choices, I identified that at the game start but agreed to let him keep them )
Any thoughts much appreciated
Sounds like you outfoxed the fox, one dark elf player to another. I mean really... isn't fooling your opponent to their disadvantage part of the game? So he thought he was charging a weak unit and it turned out it was strong. He plays the same army as you do so he should know the potential risks better than most players would be. Tell him to suck it up and play a better game.
Thanks for the responses, much appreciated
I guess it could be called a little dull, but then I've been pondering recently about how certain inevitable set ups, like bringing excessive magic is seen as okay (no way, another player who's brought 2 level 2s and 1 level 4, shocking...), but too much shooting and its dull.
Vesidel, you're clearly a warrior after my own heart
I guess it could be called a little dull, but then I've been pondering recently about how certain inevitable set ups, like bringing excessive magic is seen as okay (no way, another player who's brought 2 level 2s and 1 level 4, shocking...), but too much shooting and its dull.
I mean really... isn't fooling your opponent to their disadvantage part of the game?
Vesidel, you're clearly a warrior after my own heart
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- Highborn
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Your army lacks any units he can actually fight. You have 1 CC unit, and that one is stubborn, ItP, ASF and has two characters. The problem is not the shooting on itself, it's the fact that your shooting is pretty much everything you have. That is the difference between your shooting and his magic, he still has some CC units.
The problem with that analogy is that a warhammer game takes a couple of hours, and he can't change his sissors to paper during the game.
I don't consider throwing rock against sissors cheesy when all I have to to to beat rock is throw paper.
The problem with that analogy is that a warhammer game takes a couple of hours, and he can't change his sissors to paper during the game.
Getwisteerd,
I see where you're coming from, but am not quite sure that you're right.
If I had fielded nothing but shades and dark riders, sure, but he could very easily fight my crossbowmen - they are normal speed, non-skirmishing elves with just 1 attack, WS4 and hand weapons. Yes, the BG unit and unbreakable crossbowmen were quite hard, but then he brought a hydra and two chariots, so its not like he didn't have anything hard to throw at them too. Oh, and - as I found out to my chagrin - chill wind is quite a good remedy at silencing missile troops :/
To be honest, I thought his army was a bit weak and not-well thought out. For example, taking executioners against dark elves seems of limited point - elves are only toughness 3 and have poor armour saves. Yes, they could be useful against cavalry, but without an ASF banner they're very unlikely to get that charge and then they're striking last! Similarly, I was stunned when he fielded an assassin with no items at all (taking at least a rune of khaine is a 100% no brainer in my opinion).
Against my reapers etc, it would have helped him considerably if he had brought harpies or some other kind of war machine hunter. He did bring a small unit of naked dark riders, but then moved them into a position where my own set could charge them and wipe them out (which they promptly did).
That said, he did get some lucky shots with his reapers against mine (6 shots, 4 hits, 3 allocated on the machine, 1 on the crew, killed the crewman and then rolled 3x6s against the machine! BAM! Haha, excellent fun ).
But then half the fun of building an army is building something that is versatile enough to take on varied army builds. It seems hard to say that a dark elf army with no harpies and just one unit of 5 naked dark riders can really say that it is...
I see where you're coming from, but am not quite sure that you're right.
If I had fielded nothing but shades and dark riders, sure, but he could very easily fight my crossbowmen - they are normal speed, non-skirmishing elves with just 1 attack, WS4 and hand weapons. Yes, the BG unit and unbreakable crossbowmen were quite hard, but then he brought a hydra and two chariots, so its not like he didn't have anything hard to throw at them too. Oh, and - as I found out to my chagrin - chill wind is quite a good remedy at silencing missile troops :/
To be honest, I thought his army was a bit weak and not-well thought out. For example, taking executioners against dark elves seems of limited point - elves are only toughness 3 and have poor armour saves. Yes, they could be useful against cavalry, but without an ASF banner they're very unlikely to get that charge and then they're striking last! Similarly, I was stunned when he fielded an assassin with no items at all (taking at least a rune of khaine is a 100% no brainer in my opinion).
Against my reapers etc, it would have helped him considerably if he had brought harpies or some other kind of war machine hunter. He did bring a small unit of naked dark riders, but then moved them into a position where my own set could charge them and wipe them out (which they promptly did).
That said, he did get some lucky shots with his reapers against mine (6 shots, 4 hits, 3 allocated on the machine, 1 on the crew, killed the crewman and then rolled 3x6s against the machine! BAM! Haha, excellent fun ).
Quote:
I don't consider throwing rock against sissors cheesy when all I have to to to beat rock is throw paper.
The problem with that analogy is that a warhammer game takes a couple of hours, and he can't change his sissors to paper during the game.
But then half the fun of building an army is building something that is versatile enough to take on varied army builds. It seems hard to say that a dark elf army with no harpies and just one unit of 5 naked dark riders can really say that it is...
- Mayordaley
- Warrior
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- Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:44 am
DK27, it sounds like your opponent set himself up for failure in few different ways. Executiioners without ASF and a complete lack of war machine hunting, and poor placement of his dark riders. As for the Banner of Nag in the RxB's; everyone knows that Dark Elves are trickesy. I really don't think that this list was cheese, your opponent just felt that way because losing stinks.
Sucess isn't permanent, and failure isn't fatal. -Da Coach-
- Drek
- Malekith's Best Friend
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:48 pm
- Location: Naggaroth...where the ice cream never melts
Whether it's cheesy or not isn't the issue.
I play a magicky shooty fast list. Mine's even faster than yours, and it is frustrating to opponents, which leads to inevitable cries of cheese. If you're going to play a list like that, I'd say that you should expect some whining. You can't stop people from whining. It ain't gonna happen. So the question is "Can you put up with the whining?" If yes, keep it. If not, change it. Either way, problem solved.
I will say that I personally never tailor a list to play a specific opponent. I do that because I want to do well in tourneys, and to limit cries of cheese. It helps some.
I play a magicky shooty fast list. Mine's even faster than yours, and it is frustrating to opponents, which leads to inevitable cries of cheese. If you're going to play a list like that, I'd say that you should expect some whining. You can't stop people from whining. It ain't gonna happen. So the question is "Can you put up with the whining?" If yes, keep it. If not, change it. Either way, problem solved.
I will say that I personally never tailor a list to play a specific opponent. I do that because I want to do well in tourneys, and to limit cries of cheese. It helps some.
Looking at both lists, it's clear yours was optimized (D.net will do that to ya) while his totally not.
Even some of my opponents who've never even seen the Dark Elf army book from the inside can tell by looking at the size of my army there's an assassin in there or not, so if he plays DE himself he should've known better.
Also, if your crossbows got into charge range, he should've asked himself questions. Crossbows do not go into charge range. And if they charged him, he should've fleed and countercharged.
And nothing is more frustrating then people who don't take hard lists and can't stand losing. Take a hard list then!
Now it all depends on your local gaming culture, and the experience level of your opponent whether or not power lists can be taken, but for god's sake, if you play a game, you risk losing, get over it people, it's just a game.
That being said, your army is particulary nasty against DE. Nothing that cannot be handled though with the right terrain and some tactics.
For that reason, I usually have 2 different army lists with me, build around the same core concept, but one heavily optimized, and one softer list.
However, where I play, ppl play to win, and I've seen a treeman in 1k points totally annihilate my army, and I've even encountered Archaon the unkillable in 2k points.
I do not whine, but instead I've started playing heavier list myself, and always try to include enough options to be able to reliably deal with everything. There's always next time.
Even some of my opponents who've never even seen the Dark Elf army book from the inside can tell by looking at the size of my army there's an assassin in there or not, so if he plays DE himself he should've known better.
Also, if your crossbows got into charge range, he should've asked himself questions. Crossbows do not go into charge range. And if they charged him, he should've fleed and countercharged.
And nothing is more frustrating then people who don't take hard lists and can't stand losing. Take a hard list then!
Now it all depends on your local gaming culture, and the experience level of your opponent whether or not power lists can be taken, but for god's sake, if you play a game, you risk losing, get over it people, it's just a game.
That being said, your army is particulary nasty against DE. Nothing that cannot be handled though with the right terrain and some tactics.
For that reason, I usually have 2 different army lists with me, build around the same core concept, but one heavily optimized, and one softer list.
However, where I play, ppl play to win, and I've seen a treeman in 1k points totally annihilate my army, and I've even encountered Archaon the unkillable in 2k points.
I do not whine, but instead I've started playing heavier list myself, and always try to include enough options to be able to reliably deal with everything. There's always next time.
Thanks for the further responsesThanatoz wrote:Looking at both lists, it's clear yours was optimized (D.net will do that to ya) while his totally not.
Even some of my opponents who've never even seen the Dark Elf army book from the inside can tell by looking at the size of my army there's an assassin in there or not, so if he plays DE himself he should've known better.
Also, if your crossbows got into charge range, he should've asked himself questions. Crossbows do not go into charge range. And if they charged him, he should've fleed and countercharged.
And nothing is more frustrating then people who don't take hard lists and can't stand losing. Take a hard list then!
Now it all depends on your local gaming culture, and the experience level of your opponent whether or not power lists can be taken, but for god's sake, if you play a game, you risk losing, get over it people, it's just a game.
That being said, your army is particulary nasty against DE. Nothing that cannot be handled though with the right terrain and some tactics.
For that reason, I usually have 2 different army lists with me, build around the same core concept, but one heavily optimized, and one softer list.
However, where I play, ppl play to win, and I've seen a treeman in 1k points totally annihilate my army, and I've even encountered Archaon the unkillable in 2k points.
I do not whine, but instead I've started playing heavier list myself, and always try to include enough options to be able to reliably deal with everything. There's always next time.
Mayor and Thanatoz - I def agree, it felt like his army had just been constructed badly and then he was irked by mine because it hadn't...
However, where I play, ppl play to win, and I've seen a treeman in 1k points totally annihilate my army, and I've even encountered Archaon the unkillable in 2k points.
Haha, that's pretty hardcore (did you manage to fell Archaon?)! We seem to have an unspoken rule that you shouldn't bring:
- dragons for any battle ofd 2999 points or less (at 3000+ its okay)
- high-end special characters (e.g. archaon, teclis, malekith)
- Monster ruck lists (ie no double hydras)
- deathstars
Other than that, it's whatever you want really.
And yes, I think the 2 list approach sounds like an excellent idea. I currently have a general sense of what I bring against hard lists like WoC and horde lists like O&G and so on.
Drek, I agree as well I'm still new back to the game (after leaving it during 4th edition) so will continue to use optimised lists for now and then, once I'm better, maybe soften it down a bit if needed
Thanks again for the thoughts and such, much appreciated
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Thanks for the further responsesThanatoz wrote:Looking at both lists, it's clear yours was optimized (D.net will do that to ya) while his totally not.
Even some of my opponents who've never even seen the Dark Elf army book from the inside can tell by looking at the size of my army there's an assassin in there or not, so if he plays DE himself he should've known better.
Also, if your crossbows got into charge range, he should've asked himself questions. Crossbows do not go into charge range. And if they charged him, he should've fleed and countercharged.
And nothing is more frustrating then people who don't take hard lists and can't stand losing. Take a hard list then!
Now it all depends on your local gaming culture, and the experience level of your opponent whether or not power lists can be taken, but for god's sake, if you play a game, you risk losing, get over it people, it's just a game.
That being said, your army is particulary nasty against DE. Nothing that cannot be handled though with the right terrain and some tactics.
For that reason, I usually have 2 different army lists with me, build around the same core concept, but one heavily optimized, and one softer list.
However, where I play, ppl play to win, and I've seen a treeman in 1k points totally annihilate my army, and I've even encountered Archaon the unkillable in 2k points.
I do not whine, but instead I've started playing heavier list myself, and always try to include enough options to be able to reliably deal with everything. There's always next time.
Mayor and Thanatoz - I def agree, it felt like his army had just been constructed badly and then he was irked by mine because it hadn't...
However, where I play, ppl play to win, and I've seen a treeman in 1k points totally annihilate my army, and I've even encountered Archaon the unkillable in 2k points.
Haha, that's pretty hardcore (did you manage to fell Archaon?)! We seem to have an unspoken rule that you shouldn't bring:
- dragons for any battle ofd 2999 points or less (at 3000+ its okay)
- high-end special characters (e.g. archaon, teclis, malekith)
- Monster ruck lists (ie no double hydras)
- deathstars
Other than that, it's whatever you want really.
And yes, I think the 2 list approach sounds like an excellent idea. I currently have a general sense of what I bring against hard lists like WoC and horde lists like O&G and so on.
Drek, I agree as well I'm still new back to the game (after leaving it during 4th edition) so will continue to use optimised lists for now and then, once I'm better, maybe soften it down a bit if needed
Thanks again for the thoughts and such, much appreciated
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
Don't be a munchkin?
I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman