Dark Elves at the ETC - Suggestions?

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The avenger
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Dark Elves at the ETC - Suggestions?

Post by The avenger »

Hi. As the Army Restrictions for ETC 2010 are nearly done, I thought it would be smart to start to test different armylists. But I could need some tips on what you guys would bring, and such.

The current AR topic from TWF that's up for a vote is here, but I'll post the regular restrictions and the ones for DE here.

General composition rules:

- Band C Armies may have 6 Special and 4 Rare Choices.
- Max. 1 of each rare choice (Max.2 of each for High Elves)
- Max. 2 of the same Special choice
- Max. 3 of the same Core choice, except ranked infantry without missile weapons and beast herds.
- Max. 3 chariots (incl. characters and units).
- Max. 3 units of flyers (incl. characters)
- Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines, characters and chariots).
- Max. 5 warmachines.
- Max. 9 PD in an army *

*Magic description
You can use a maximum of 9 power dice in each magic phase. Each bound spell you use count as 1 power dice, all following bound spells used in the same turn counts as 2 power dice.

Every ability that grants the bearer complete knowledge of a single lore counts as one power dice in each magic phase.

All dice you would not normally generate, such as Focused Rumination Slann free dice, Skaven warpstones, night goblin mushrooms, power of darkness etc., also count in the total number of dice you can use in a magic phase.

Tomb Kings count each dice they use for a spell as 1 power dice and casket of souls counts as 2 dice total. They can not chose not to use all the dice when casting an incantation, for example a Liche Priest can’t choose only to use 1 dice on a spell. You can how ever choose not to cast a spell with a model. The 2 basic power dice all armies get only counts if they are used to dispel RIP spells with.

Max 10 dispel dice per army. First dispel scroll (and similar working items) you have in your army counts as 1 dispel dice, in EACH magic phase. The second and all other scrolls, counts as 2 dispel dice in each magic phase. So if you have 3 scrolls you can use a maximum of 5 dispel dice each magic phase. Dice from magic resistance does count in this maximum. Being allowed to reroll your dispel dice every turn counts as 1 dispel dice.

Dice removed by the Chaos Dwarf Chalice of Darkness count as dice used. You remove 3 power dice, you can use only 6 more in your magic phase.

Race specific:
DARK ELVES -Max. 35 repeater crossbows in the army; Max. 8 shades per unit; Max. 2 flying units or characters; Assassins after the first take a hero choice; Pendant of khaleth takes a hero choice; Ring of hotek takes a hero choice; Max. 1 Large Target; Max. 1 Rare choice


I've been thinking a little bit on these restrictiones, and 3 lists pop up in mye head:
- Dragon, caddy, hotek. 2 RBTs
- Max magic, pendant bsb on steed, hydra
- Max magic, Cauldrion, hydra

The rest of the lists consist of 2 blocks of spears, 2*10 crossbows, some shades, black guards and chariots, maybe an assassin.

So what do you think would be the most competetive Dark Elf list this year? :)


Btw, are there anyone else here that's going?
Prince fabulas
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Post by Prince fabulas »

These restrictions seem fairly harsh for DE.

Somewhat like VC were too harshly nerfed last year.

I think most of the problems would be solved with RoH, PoK and assassin were hero slots and the crossbows were restricted to 30.

I passed this on to my captain.

I agree with your builds.

I think I will drop the dragon and go magic heavy.

Take a hydra and put in a RS and MB assassin to help kill large targets.

With PoK BSB.

The other kind of build I can think of that might be interesting is Dragon Hydra, RoH. With CoK x 2, harpies and 2/3 x DR.

All-out assault.

I can't see it working too well without a cauldron.

Maybe take out the dragon for a manticore.

But I am never a big of the manticore.

Like a griffon it dies too easily.


By the way I am going with Ireland.

Hopefully we can come above last this year. :lol:

Who do you play for?
The avenger
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Post by The avenger »

Prince Fabulas wrote:These restrictions seem fairly harsh for DE.

Somewhat like VC were too harshly nerfed last year.

I think most of the problems would be solved with RoH, PoK and assassin were hero slots and the crossbows were restricted to 30.

I passed this on to my captain.

I agree with your builds.

I think I will drop the dragon and go magic heavy.

Take a hydra and put in a RS and MB assassin to help kill large targets.

With PoK BSB.

The other kind of build I can think of that might be interesting is Dragon Hydra, RoH. With CoK x 2, harpies and 2/3 x DR.

All-out assault.

I can't see it working too well without a cauldron.

Maybe take out the dragon for a manticore.

But I am never a big of the manticore.

Like a griffon it dies too easily.


By the way I am going with Ireland.

Hopefully we can come above last this year. :lol:

Who do you play for?


I'm from Norway, but I'm going down as a sideeventplayer along with some other guys this year aswell;)

I'm not sure wether I want to take Hotek or Pendant. I think I'll go for the pendant.

I'll also max out number of RxBs I think.
So in the end I to will propably go for max magic, shooting, pendantbsb and hydra :)
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Post by Slortor »

you cant have dragon and hydra - thats two large targets.

This is where i curse the fact i dont get enough tournies in a year - i have no idea how to go about the ETC in England
Name: Khalia D'Vaarko (meaning: Khalia, property of Vaarko)
Age: 210
Height/Weight: 5'6", 8 stone
Other: no distinguishing features, barring the brand of a great house left wrist.
Class: Mage
Equipment: Robes, Dagger, Staff
Skills: Power of Ulgu, Power of Chamon
Stats: Ws3, S3, T3, D4, I5

lrnec wrote: Reality and truth is more brutal than almost any fantasy game
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Post by Prince fabulas »

I had missed the bit about max 1 large target.

I think it is getting a bit silly.

Hopefully these restrictions are somewhat watered down.

It is going to need a serious redesign of my army list.

Dragon ,AoES, Lifetaker, PoS
Caddy
Cauldron, BSB

17 BG, FC, BoHG, RoH
6 shades, GW
6 shades, GW

2 x 10 xb, shields, mus
5 DR, XB, mus

hydra
2 Reapers


I was practicing with a magic heavy build but I thought since players at ETC will generally be very good. I will have to think less with a dragon and RoH. So I will make less mistakes. It worked failry well.

My big dilema is whether to lose the Hydra or Reapers?
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Post by The avenger »

Hydra or Reapers is a tough choice, but imo that'll depend on magic or dragon. If you take the dragon, you don't have a choice neither :P

As for your current list, you have to remove the hydra, aswell as one of your heroes, as hotek takes one heroslot this year, and I guess you want to keep that :P It's hard to be a Dark Elf now :roll:
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Post by Lakissov »

I just wanted to make a topic regarding this, as I am currently choosing between two lists, and saw your topic. So, I'll just post my two lists here, and ask for opinions.

LIST 1: Counterassault

Dreadlord on Dragon with KB lance, 1+ armour, Potion of Strength & MR1
Level 2: 2 x Dispel Scroll
Level 2: +1 dispel staff, +1 spell book

Assassin: stars, manbane, bound Steed of Shadows

5 harpies
5 Dark riders with music
5 dark riders with music
10 crossbowmen with shields and music

8 shades with ahw
8 shades with ahw
18 BG with ASF banner and CD champion

RBT
RBT

LIST 2: Full defense

Level 4: Crystal of Midnight, 2 Scrolls, +1 Spell
Level 2: +1 to dispel, MR1

Assassin: stars, manbane
Assassin: stars, manbane

5 harpies
5 harpies
5 Dark riders with music
5 dark riders with music
10 crossbowmen with shields and music

8 shades with ahw
8 shades with ahw

20 BG with ASF and CD champion
10 BG with Ring champion

RBT
RBT

---

Basically, the first list is a classical counterassault list with dragon, but the magic defense is done not by the usual caddy + ring - instead it's scrolls and +1 to dispel

The second list cares even more about enemy magic (somehow in my games it has been the most destructive thing that the enemy has - except against dwarfs). It's a nasty bunker list, with the sorceresses being just out of 12" of the ring, but their unit still being protected by the ring.

What do you think, what is better and why?
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Post by The avenger »

Lakissov wrote:I just wanted to make a topic regarding this, as I am currently choosing between two lists, and saw your topic. So, I'll just post my two lists here, and ask for opinions.

LIST 1: Counterassault

Dreadlord on Dragon with KB lance, 1+ armour, Potion of Strength & MR1
Level 2: 2 x Dispel Scroll
Level 2: +1 dispel staff, +1 spell book

Assassin: stars, manbane, bound Steed of Shadows

5 harpies
5 Dark riders with music
5 dark riders with music
10 crossbowmen with shields and music

8 shades with ahw
8 shades with ahw
18 BG with ASF banner and CD champion

RBT
RBT

LIST 2: Full defense

Level 4: Crystal of Midnight, 2 Scrolls, +1 Spell
Level 2: +1 to dispel, MR1

Assassin: stars, manbane
Assassin: stars, manbane

5 harpies
5 harpies
5 Dark riders with music
5 dark riders with music
10 crossbowmen with shields and music

8 shades with ahw
8 shades with ahw

20 BG with ASF and CD champion
10 BG with Ring champion

RBT
RBT

---

Basically, the first list is a classical counterassault list with dragon, but the magic defense is done not by the usual caddy + ring - instead it's scrolls and +1 to dispel

The second list cares even more about enemy magic (somehow in my games it has been the most destructive thing that the enemy has - except against dwarfs). It's a nasty bunker list, with the sorceresses being just out of 12" of the ring, but their unit still being protected by the ring.

What do you think, what is better and why?


If you're playing on the Estonian team, I think you should plan the list with your team, so you can agree what kind of armies you should build your list to meet. If you're a sideeventplayer like me, it's a bit worse :P

Now, for the lists:

Nr1:
I like the list, but maybe you could try to remove one shade, and squeeze in crossbows on the Dark Riders? With so little combattroops, you'll need to
You have a hard lord, but I think that hydrablade perhaps would be better to take down monsters on their way against you and you fly around with the dragon ;)

Nr2:
I made the list in AB, and found you hade some points left, so here's what I came up with:

Lvl4: 2 scrolls, crystal of midnight, +1 spell
Lvl2: +1 dispel, MR1

2 Assassins: Manbane, Stars
2*5 Harpies
2*5 Dark Riders: Musican, Crossbows
10 Crossbows: Shields

8 Shades: ahw
7 shades: ahw
20 Black Guards: ASF, Crimson Death Champ
17 Black Guards: Banner of Murder/Warbanner, Hotek Champion

2 Bolt Throwers

The last BG unit is perhaps a to big, but I think in a defencive list one could use 2 stubborn kick ass combat units :P

However, the best way to find your list is to play alot of games against several ETC comped armies and see how it goes ;) I'll post my suggestions soon, just have a little painting to do first 8)
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Lakissov
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Post by Lakissov »

Erm, i guess the army builder lied to you then - i'm using excel and point values from the book (which i remember by heart mostly)

As for the team aspect, well, we aren't going to take it overly seriously yet - it's going to be just the first time for us participating.

When I compare these lists, then I can see that the first one is goo against assault lists, while the second one is good almost against anything.

And in the case if I really messed up with the points values, I would just put all the remaining points into the big bunker unit of BG - it helps to keep them safer. I mean, 20 BG is good, but 30 is better, and 40 is even better (all eggs in one basket is a good thing, as long as the basket doesn't fall down).
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Post by Xerasi »

But you can't Lak... Blackguards have a unit size of 5-20...
Your list 1 is illegal because of double arcane items (staff of sorcery and tome, neither work like scrolls)
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Post by Lakissov »

Damn, the limit on amount of black guard is something I overlooked completely. Here's what i think about it :) : http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n169 ... iginal.gif

As for the first list - true, the tome has to be switched for MR1.
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Post by The avenger »

I calculated it again, now by hand, and still I come to 2069 pts on your second list :?

As you said yourself, I think that nr 2 anyway will be the best choice, as it can perform good against many things ;) Test it and let us know 8)
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Post by Thanatoz »

I like that Lak.

On a sidenote, I have calculated that with a single level 4 with the dagger in a unit of 15 shieldless warriors can easily reach the power level of 9 power die a turn (2 + 4 from sorc + 3 from warriors). You'd only need 12 warriors, but oh well. Something to consider. I like your setup however. I'd give it a run, but I don't have that many BG.
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Post by Lakissov »

yeah, i was consedering the dagger too, but i really wanted magic defense. that means, i want the +1 to dispel staff, and at least two scrolls.

actually, to increase offense a bit, it could be a good idea to get the bound steed of shadows in the second list (this would be the 9th power dice per turn). currently, I have 5 points left over in the list, so if I for example refuse fromt MR1 on the sorceress (null talisman), then I get 15 points, and hence I'll have 20 points for steed of shadows. the list would then look like this:

L4: 2 DS, Crystal, extra spell
L2: +1 to dispel
Assassin 1: stars, manbane, bound Steed
Assassin 2: stars, manbane

2 x 5 harpies
2 x 5 DR + Mu
10 Rxb, shields + Mu

20 BG, ASF, CD
10 BG, Ring

8 shades, ahw
8 shades, ahw

2 x RBT
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Post by Thanatoz »

I'd personally go for 2*15 BG en 7 GW armed shades instead of 8 AHW, but that's your choice ultimately.

I've been thinking a lot about these restrictions, and I feel double Black Guard is going to be very popular.

I myself don't go to the ETC, but locally we use those restrictions. So I feel more Khainite themed lists (Cauldron with big block of execs, bg and witches) will hit the table.
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Post by Lakissov »

DE are very squeezed with hero choices in ETC environment, so I don't think that cauldron will be seen very often (we need these hero slots for magic defense, rather).

Cauldron is most efficient in conjunctin with COK and hydra, which are good in an assault list only (and ironically, you can't take hydra + dragon to ETC). However, the assault lists are going to be extremely vulnerable to magic (tried that once against heavy-magic WoC; I don't remember making any mistakes in that game, but I got massacred, as my army just got totally destroyed by magic).
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Post by The avenger »

This is the list I've worked out so far. Except from bolt throwers, there's maxed shooting , with weight on shades for higher BS, and maxed magic. Not sure on the magicpart, beacause I'm not sure if it's effective enough. Have to try it out I guess ;)

So what do you think about this?

Lvl 4: 2 Scrolls, Focus Familiar, Dark Pegasus
Lvl 2: Tome of Furion, Seal of Ghrond
BsB: AoES, Sword of Might, Shield, SDC, Dark Steed

Assassin: adhw, manbane, stars, cloak of twilight

10 RxBs
10 RxBs
5 Dark Riders
5 Harpies
5 Harpies

7 Shades: gw
8 Shades: adhw
17 BGs: asf, hotek
11 BGs: Banner, Champion w/ Crimson Death

Hydra
Yes, it's quite a small army, but it's combact, and can do some good damage both from afar and in combat ;) need some skills to manouver it perhaps, but that's why we practice right? :P
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Post by Thanatoz »

Going to be seeing lots of those I guess. Not that that's a bad thing, it just looks like best fitting in the format.

Sadly, DE can only use 2 flyers in ETC, so either you need to lose some harpies or the Pegasus.

Also, I think Lakissov's setting for the BG is a bit better, namely the Crimson Death in the ASF unit, and the ring protecting it from 12" away. Several advantages:

- if positioned right, you can include (one of) your sorcs in the BG while the unit is still being protected against enemy magic. :)
- BG have S4, which ain't bad at all, but fails against high armour saves. Crimson Death is necessary to tackle those units if there's no Cauldron around to bestow KB on them.

I'm wondering about the Hydra vs RBT in such lists, but I also felt that with max xbows and 6 magic levels, the hydra won out. I'm going to field test both though.

I've come up with the following hero choices myself (I've been using an army with POK BSB, COB, Caddy, Rending Stars Assassin and ROH on BG):

Lvl 4 with 2 scrolls, Pendant, Soulrender in ASF BG
COB BSB
Lvl 2 with SoS
Ass with rending stars and cloak

No ring, I'm going to try without it at first. My gut feeling says this setup is a huge points sink, but it operates more or less the same as my previous list. This will be tested against friends first, so I'll probably tweak it out later.

I've thought about just replacing the pendant with the AOES, but I felt it was going to fail rather sooner than later versus the things I used it for. Please report your thoughts after using it though.

Also, sooner or later my CoK are going to get the shaft for a second regiment (cannot risk the stupidity anymore). Just need to get more far too expensive models.
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Post by Prince fabulas »

I would not use the Lv4 with 2 BG and ring of Hotek.

I was trying out this build for ETC last year and it went well for the initial part of testing and I massacred some magic heavy armies.

Then I had a few disasterous games where the enemy quickly came inside the bubble with units the Black Gaurd could not kill (Star Dragon, Hellcannon, Treeman). Once it became a big fight near the ring and I could not use my magic to help out I was at a big disadvantage.

I did manage to win some of these games but they were very complicated and messy.

I switched to the list above (Dragon, Hydra) just before ETC.
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Post by Lakissov »

Hm, that's a very valid consern from Prince Fabulas, actually. I guess in that case the best use for the hero choice freed up by not using the ring (and the points what would have been used for the extra 10BG) would be to buy one more assassin. In this way, there would be two mages and three assassins (all with rending stars and manbane). The assassins then could either all be placed into the same unit in turn 1, or we could have one in BG and two in two different shades, if the terrain allows to put shades to favourable positions (which is rare, but still).

That would make a list like this:

L4: Crystal of "you forget a spell", 2 scrolls, +1 spell
L2: +1 to dispel, MR1

Assassin: ahw, stars, manbane, bound Steed
Assassin: ahw, stars, manbane
Assassin: ahw, stars, manbane

2 x 5 harpies
2 x 5 DR with music (no crossbows)
10 rxb with shields and music

2 x 8 shades, ahw
20 BG, ASF, CD
2 x RBT
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Post by The avenger »

Doh, I forgot about the flying unit limit :roll: That puts me in a dilemme; 2 harpy units for diverting and less mobile sorceress, or one harpy unit and the pegasus. I think the peggy will go, and replaced by a regular steed. What do you think guys?

I think the Hotek should be around, and setting the lvl2 in the way Thanatoz described ;) Just need to do a itemswap on the BGs.

I don't think (alot of thinking here :P ) 2 units of Black Guards would be a waste, as the list won't have alot of combattroops, another heavy combatunit can become handy :P

But I'll sure try the last list posted by Lakissov :)
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Post by The avenger »

Picking this topic up again;


I had two games against lizardmen yesterday with this list:
- Lvl 4: tome, scroll, seal
- Lvl 2: scroll, +1 pd
- Bsb: steed, ha, shield, sdc, som, aoes
- ninja assassin: adhw, stars, manbane, cloak
- 2*10 archers: shield
- 5 dark riders
- 2*5 harpies
- 7+8 shades
- 13 BGs: champ, CD, banner
- 17 BGs: champ, hotek, banner, asf
- 2 Bolt Throwers

lost one 1-19 and won 20-0. I gambled to much and kept getting 2 doubles when casting spells because of hotek. The second battle I was more carefull, and did some more thinking for my deployment.

It's quite a solid list, and I enjoyed playing it. I'm thinking about dropping the ring, to get some even more aggressive magicfase, but it's a powerfull psychological effect against our enemies 8) So I have to test some more, but so far I think it's a ok list.

Has anyone else had som etc testgames so far? :)
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Post by Lakissov »

I had a test with the list I had previously mentioned - against WoC. I lost by a lot (we didn't calculate points), mainly due to my inability to use the assassins efficiently. Basically, three assassins sound cool, but it's sometimes difficult to get them near those things that they need to kill (in that game, that meant dragon and hellcannon).
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Post by Burning gaze »

The Avenger wrote:It's quite a solid list, and I enjoyed playing it. I'm thinking about dropping the ring, to get some even more aggressive magicfase, but it's a powerfull psychological effect against our enemies


The psycological effect is still there, because people will think you have Hotek, and avoid casting near the ringbearer.
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Post by Alcranio »

This is my ETC army list, i am playing DE this way:

Lord, Soulrender, pendant, terror, heavy armor, sea dragon cloack, shield
1st level, hotek, dispel scroll
assassin, manbane, rending stars, second hand weapon

3x6 dark riders, musician, repeater crossbows
2x5 harpies

2x8 shades, second hand weapon
20 black guard, ASF, crimson death
20 black guard, warbanner, magic S5 weapon

2x repeater bolt throwers.

Sorry for my bad english, hope this may help.
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