3K vs DoC Kairous Fateweaver Oracle of Tzeentch

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Nellamik
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3K vs DoC Kairous Fateweaver Oracle of Tzeentch

Post by Nellamik »

I played my 1st 8th game last weekend vs a very nasty DoC army.
My opponant was the GW manager at my local store.
I was looking for a game and he warned me his list was nasty.
His army was total Tzeentch.

Kairous Fateweaver Oracle of Tzeentch
2x25 Horrers with FC & Heralds in each
a hord block of 50 (at least) Horrers with a Herald FC and a Changeling
2 x 6 Flammers & champ
2 x6 screamers & champ

His magic phase creamed me as it kept building with all those horrers.
Kairous is actually 2 L4 wizards and knows spells from every lore including Tzeentch. Combined with the lore of life I could not kill them and keep them dead. He was replacing them as fast as I killed them.
The only good news was I wasn't playing Dark elves I was WoC.
I had a good list and as it was used Galrauch to try and combat his greater daemon. Well that didn't work so good as he transformed into a Horned dragon with the transformation of Kadon Spell.

I'll spare the details as it was over by turn 4. but I did enjoy playing my 1st 8th. game. My WoC list did not fare well but I was thinking that a Druchii list might be a better match for this power player's magic based army.
Please give me your thoughts so i can get revenge with my Druchii legions.
He's a tough one that Kairous.
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Post by Venkh »

His magic phase creamed me as it kept building with all those horrers.


What do you mean here? He shouldnt be getting extra dice for Horror units any more...

Kairos is nasty but only has I 1 so a purple ball or a pit of shades will almost always kill him with no saves allowed.
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Post by Nellamik »

A unit of Horrers is a wizard and can cast spells from the Daemon lore of Tzeentch. Each unit had a L2 Herald that also had a power vortex adding 1 power die each (3) He was also casting Boon of Tzeetch that adds D3 power dice. He would do this after exhasting my dispell dice with other mean stuff from Kairos. I could not stop his power build up to 12.
At one point had 12 power dice and would cast a spell, then use the boon to get back up to 12 again "Brutal"
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Post by Nellamik »

I was just reading the Pit of shades and have a question, when you place the template it scatters D6 does it only effect models under it when it stops or also on the way there?
Also what is the Purple ball?
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Post by Dalamar »

A unit of Horrors is a wizard, yes, but they use the same dice that Kairos would have access to, so in a way they take dice away from Kairos (bad move).

Remember, he might know all spells, but he needs to specify which head knows which lore (he can't switch Lores! One head has access to 4 lores + lore of tzeentch) and each magic phase he has to pick one head to cast spells (so can't cast spells known by the other head in that magic phase)

Uf Heralds were Masters of Sorcery then they couldn't know Lore of Tzeentch (it forces them to take a lore from the main rulebook). Since Boon of Tzeentch is a spell #2, it means that if any wizard in the army (say, Kairos) knows that spell (and Kairos does) then no other wizard can know that spell as well. So only one Boon of Tzeentch, *ever*

Because Kairos knows *all* spells from effectively 3 Lores (2 chosen Rulebook Lores and Tzeentch Lore) he limits the heralds to either being stuck to signature spells (flickering fire in case of Tzeentch Lore) in those lores or picking different lores (and guess what, they can't unless they pay for Master of Sorcery (which is 50 points I believe))

Boon of Tzeentch adds Power Dice for the use of the caster only according to DoC FAQ, so Heralds casting Boon give nothingn to Kairos.

He doesn't seem to have Blue Scribes in his list so lets see.

Average amount of Power dice = 7
7 wizards with a 1/6 chance of channeling, for simplicity lets say 8 dice.
2 of them go for Boon, would be bad if Kairos rolled a 2 and became useless for the rest of the magic phase.
average dice gain = +9

That's 9 dice.
9 dice is nothing crazy. That's one #6 spell cast on max power and 2 or 3 smaller spells

Unless he gets really lucky winds of magic there is no way for Kairos to have 12 power dice in a predictable manner. Heck, he might end up with a measly 2 power dice to utilise over entire magic phase.

Pit of Shades only damages models under its last location. Purple Sun hits everything as it moves (difference between Direct Damage spell and a Vortex spell)

Honestly I believe you were cheated.

edit:
After reading closely the spell selection rules it seems Kairos would be exempt from the "one same spell per army" rule since he doesn't roll for them. This doesn't affect the whole thing much as only one of the three Heralds would be able to have Boon of Tzeentch as well as Kairos.
Taking Master of Sorcery forces Heralds to use Rulebook Lores (and they can duplicate spells then since they don't roll for them)

summary:
Taking an army with a grand total of 6 wizards is a bad idea. No matter what, there will not be enough Power Dice in existence to fuel even one of them no matter how hard they try. (and remember that Boon of Tzeentch dice as well as Power of Darkness dice can only be used by the wizard that cast the spell in question)
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by Nellamik »

Thanks for the responses. Now I really feel like this game was not played correctly. It seemed like forever in his magic phase. But when you are playing your 1st 8th game with a GW store manager you would think that he knows what he is doing and roll with it.
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Post by Masked jackal »

Nellamik wrote:Thanks for the responses. Now I really feel like this game was not played correctly. It seemed like forever in his magic phase. But when you are playing your 1st 8th game with a GW store manager you would think that he knows what he is doing and roll with it.

Well, next time, don't trust even the GW store managers, or really, any GW staff. ;)
8th Edition Druchii War Report:
W/D/L: 30/1/15
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Post by N'kari »

@ Dalamar

Dal I think you mat is slighly off:

7 power dice average, 2 or 3 powervorex, 6 or 7 channel, that will net him 12 powerdices almost every time, as due to the list there where 7 wizards on table.

also Loremasters ignore the rule that you can have a spell only once, as far as i read the book.

Blue scribes would even be worse...
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Post by Thanee »

N'Kari wrote:also Loremasters ignore the rule that you can have a spell only once, as far as i read the book.


There was no such rule (that you can have each spell only once) in 7th edition, why should a 7th edition army book rule ignore an 8th edition rulebook rule?



Also, AFAIK, Master of Sorcery does not work with Lore of Tzeentch (or did that change in 8th? Havn't seen anthing in the errata document about it.), only with the eight rulebook Lores. So the Herald has to roll the Boon normally, even if the spell can be known in the army multiple times (which I really doubt).

GW store staff NEVER know the rules. They are only experts at propaganda. ;)

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Post by Dalamar »

7 power dice, can't speak of power vortex as I don't remember if it adds to the pool or to the wizard's dice (if wizard's then it's useless in this setup) and my Daemon book is in transit right now.
6 or 7 for channel? what? channel has 1/6 chance of happening. 1/3 if you pay for silly expensive item (that daemons don't have access to) so more like 7/6 of a PD channelled... that means 1 die every turn and 2 dice once in a game.

That is closer to 11 dice, but unknown if vortex can be used universally (going by our Darkstar Cloak, it only allows the wizard carrying it to use that die)

also Loremasters ignore the rule that you can have a spell only once, as far as i read the book.


Yes it does, but per Daemon FAQ, a tzeentch Herald with Master of Sorcery can't take Lore of Tzeentch.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by Nellamik »

Ok things are seeming a bit clearer now. As far as the magic phase goes here is what happened as best I can remember.

Turn 1 His magic phase he rolled badly in th WoM 2+2
So he had 2 PD & I had 2 DD we both channeled some. But he managed to get an augment spell that gave his Hord block +3T so they were T7
This remained in play.
On Turn 2 I was going to dispell it in my phase but forgot.
He cast it on another unit and moved it
On Turn 3 I was in CC with that unit and a lot of other units as well as Kairos with Galrauch.
In his Magic phase he rolled good WoM 6+6
So he got 12 PD & I got 6 DD I did not channel
He cast another augment on that block this time giving them S7
I was worried about that and used all my DD in vain trying to dispell it.
Then he cast the Boon and got more PD and I was defensless
He cast another Boon and had his way with me. resulting in the dragon.
The dragon killed Galrauch and after that turn I conceeded.
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Post by Dalamar »

Question remains, who cast the boons, and who used the dice from the boons?

Boon cast by a herald only gives PD to that herald, Kairos can't use it.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by Nellamik »

As far as who was casting what, I don't remember but that is something that I will watch closely in the future.
At this point I would like to mention his 2 units of 6 flammers. They were pretty nasty as well. If I did not have WoC units they would have been even worse. But not having ranged weapons did not help.

So now I believe that a Supreme sorceress on a DP with Focus familiar
Seal of Ghrond using the Lore of Death, would be a good start for my Druchii legion of revenge.

Thoughts?
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Post by Dalamar »

Here's an idea. Fight him in his own game. With the new rules, Druchii can rule the magic phase if you so want.

Lets see.

Supreme Sorceress with Sacrificial Dagger and Pendant of Khaeleth (and anything else you feel like) in at least 50 warriors. I would go with Death Magic on her (Tzeentch Heralds are only Ld 8 and no more than T4, the death magic sniping spells will make a short work of them)

Sorceress with Darkstar Cloak and a dispel scroll. This one with Fire Magic (he seems to like massed units, Horrors are T3, they might have 4+ ward with herald in the unit, but that's job for the level 4 to deal with, and then 3d6 S4 bolt will really shrink their numbers)

Sorceress with Seal of Ghrond and Tome of Furion, Shadow Magic (Tzeentch Daemons have really bad I. Horrors are 3, Flamers are 2, Kairos is 1... Pit of Shades really KILLS them)

Sorceress with Feedback Scroll (when Kairos casts something on 5 or more dice (and he probably will) you unroll that and deal 2 wounds on average, that will scare even the big nasty)

Then you complete the army with big (at least 20 models) units of crossbowmen. And something tough to cause him trouble. Chariots are great as they're T5 like Hydra but not flammable.

If you can prepare to fight him specifically, you should have no problems.

Our basic troops are cheaper *and* better than horrors, so you will outnumber him by quite a bunch. Then it's down to a magical contest.

While he can get:
2d6 (winds of magic) + 3 (Power Vortex) + 2 (average gain on two Boons of Tzeentch) + channeling = 7-14 PD on average in a phase.

You can get:
2d6 (winds of magic) + 1 (Darkstar Cloak) + 4 (average gain on 4 powers of darkness) + 5 (maximum amount of models killed by sacrificial dagger per turn) + channeling = 12-21 PD on average in a phase.

Remember important thing. If all his heralds have Power Vortex, and he rolls more than 9 on Winds of Magic, some of those Power Vortex dice are lost because they add to the pool as well, giving the advantage in magic phase to you, by a BIG margin.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by xFallenx »

Dalamar wrote:Here's an idea. Fight him in his own game. With the new rules, Druchii can rule the magic phase if you so want.

Lets see.

Supreme Sorceress with Sacrificial Dagger and Pendant of Khaeleth (and anything else you feel like) in at least 50 warriors. I would go with Death Magic on her (Tzeentch Heralds are only Ld 8 and no more than T4, the death magic sniping spells will make a short work of them)

Sorceress with Darkstar Cloak and a dispel scroll. This one with Fire Magic (he seems to like massed units, Horrors are T3, they might have 4+ ward with herald in the unit, but that's job for the level 4 to deal with, and then 3d6 S4 bolt will really shrink their numbers)

Sorceress with Seal of Ghrond and Tome of Furion, Shadow Magic (Tzeentch Daemons have really bad I. Horrors are 3, Flamers are 2, Kairos is 1... Pit of Shades really KILLS them)

Sorceress with Feedback Scroll (when Kairos casts something on 5 or more dice (and he probably will) you unroll that and deal 2 wounds on average, that will scare even the big nasty)

Then you complete the army with big (at least 20 models) units of crossbowmen. And something tough to cause him trouble. Chariots are great as they're T5 like Hydra but not flammable.

If you can prepare to fight him specifically, you should have no problems.

Our basic troops are cheaper *and* better than horrors, so you will outnumber him by quite a bunch. Then it's down to a magical contest.

While he can get:
2d6 (winds of magic) + 3 (Power Vortex) + 2 (average gain on two Boons of Tzeentch) + channeling = 7-14 PD on average in a phase.

You can get:
2d6 (winds of magic) + 1 (Darkstar Cloak) + 4 (average gain on 4 powers of darkness) + 5 (maximum amount of models killed by sacrificial dagger per turn) + channeling = 12-21 PD on average in a phase.

Remember important thing. If all his heralds have Power Vortex, and he rolls more than 9 on Winds of Magic, some of those Power Vortex dice are lost because they add to the pool as well, giving the advantage in magic phase to you, by a BIG margin.


You really are a DE Dalamar, good on ya! I didn't like the way that manager and a great many GW managers I've met for that manner, manipulate rules to advantage and claim that since they work for GW they have a better grasp on the rules.
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Post by Nellamik »

Thanks Dalamar
Heres what I have so far

Supreme Sorceress Sacrificial Dagger Pendant of Khaeleth
Ruby Ring of Ruin, Lore of Death
L2 Sorceress Dark steed Darkstar Cloak and a dispel scroll. Lore of Fire
L2 Sorceress Dark Steed Seal of Ghrond & Tome of Furion, Lore of Shadow
L2 Sorceress with Feedback Scroll

Assasin Manbane Ruin of Khaine
30 Warriors spears Light armour shields FC war banner
10 Xbows light armour Mus & Standard
10 xbows light armour Standard
5 x Dark riders xbows & mus
5 x Dark riders xbows & mus
5 x Dark riders xbows & mus
5 x Harpies
5 x Harpies

5 x Shades
5 x Shades
6 x CoK FC Standard of slaughter
15 x Black guard FC Standard of Hag Graef

2 Reaper bolt throwers
War Hydra

2998 points all % criteria met
Gives me Fortitude of 7 and 45 xbows total
(I don't have 50 spears so I added the BG that I do have)
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Post by Dalamar »

Keep spearmen out of combat and as cheap as you can, they're there to be fodder for sacrificial dagger.

Preferably out of range of his spells, Lore of Tzeentch doesn't have a lot of long-ranged spells so you should be able to play with the distance.

Last level 2 sorc can use Dark Magic.

Chillwind, as long as it kills one flamer (so make sure there's already wounded one in the unit) stops the entire unit from shooting. Bladewind can put an important wound on a Herald hiding inside a unit. Black Horror makes short work of S3 horrors (especially the block of 50 ;) ).

Stand back and shoot the hell out of him. Your range is bigger or equal in all respects. Flamers can now march and shoot so you might want to deal with them as soon as you can (chariots would be nice, I'm guessing you don't own any though)

Drop Rune of Khaine from the assassin and give him Rending Stars. See how brave Kairos is when there's a ninja hitting on 2+ and wounding on 2+ following him around.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by Nellamik »

Dalamar this is great
Keep spearmen out of combat and as cheap as you can, they're there to be fodder for sacrificial dagger.

So the BG unit will be OK in this list and 30 spears should be enough?
Preferably out of range of his spells, Lore of Tzeentch doesn't have a lot of long-ranged spells so you should be able to play with the distance.
Yes and the SS can cast Death spells from this bunker
Last level 2 sorc can use Dark Magic.

I was thinking that also. She will join the BG for the time being.
Chillwind, as long as it kills one flamer (so make sure there's already wounded one in the unit) stops the entire unit from shooting. Bladewind can put an important wound on a Herald hiding inside a unit. Black Horror makes short work of S3 horrors (especially the block of 50 ).
Chillwind is good for one unit per turn he has two, but I like it.

Stand back and shoot the hell out of him. Your range is bigger or equal in all respects. Flamers can now march and shoot so you might want to deal with them as soon as you can (chariots would be nice, I'm guessing you don't own any though)
Correct I do not have any DE chariots but I can use my Chaos chariots if I need to. I am not sure what your thinking is on this. Those flamers really put out some heat (pun intended)
My Chaos warriors and knights took a lot of abuse getting to them.

Drop Rune of Khaine from the assassin and give him Rending Stars. See how brave Kairos is when there's a ninja hitting on 2+ and wounding on 2+ following him around.
Are you saying we should bring out the assasin and give chase to Kairos. That's interesting.

One other comment. This is all good but alot will depend on whether the SS gets the Purple Sun and/or the L2 with shadows gets the Pit of Shades
With this set up we have a 4 out 6 chance for PS
and a 3 out 6 chance for PoS
That could go wrong
I was thinking (it happens some times) that the Tome of Furion might be better on the SS giving her 5 of 6 chances for PS but that could also fail.
Just a thought.
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Post by Dalamar »

Purple Sun is not a requirement, though it would be really nice.
Doom and Darkness coupled with Death signature spell can really mess up Kairos and it's really good against all daemons who are essentially stubborn.
Reducing their T and S (for all units withing 24" which is MASSIVE) makes your other Death spells more effective. Purple Sun is icing on the cake.

With Pit of Shades I would go for smaller template, because it scatters less and you're aiming for a relatively small target that is Kairos, remember you only need to touch the corner of his base to essentially kill him on 2+

Leave the big, important spells for last. Start magic phases with putting pressure on his flamers, screamers and horrors (work on reducing the smaller units to below 5 first, then deal with the large one). Leaving sniping Heralds and Kairos for when he's out of dispel dice.

Daemons don't have access to the amazing list of the new magic scrolls so you don't have to worry about feedback scrolls coming your way, but they still can have multiple dispel scrolls on their tzeentch heralds, so just force your way through them the Druchii way.

Hydra against Tzeentch... not so good, might as well use the points somewhere else. Every single attack he can throw at you, be it ranged, melee or magic, is Flaming.

Two Chariots instead of a single Hydra can put real pressure on flamers. Unless he keeps both units right next to each other, one unit will not have enough firepower to deal with two chariots. He needs 5+ to wound them, and then you still have 4+ armor save left to shrug off half of the wounds. One chariot should safely take one round of shooting and possibly die to stand and shoot, and the second chariot drives home, with full wounds, into, hopefully weakened by ranged attacks, flamers
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by Nellamik »

Nothing worse than a smart Dark elf is there.
Ok I see what you are saying about the chariots.
I'll run that up the flagpole.
I suppose we will handle the screamers with xbows & reapers quickly.
They also can hurt us flying around, screaming and slashing (what's wrong with them?) They put a hurt on my Marauder horseman but I did not have this firepower with WoC. 45 xbows should handle them, I hope.

Daemons don't have access to the amazing list of the new magic scrolls so you don't have to worry about feedback scrolls coming your way, but they still can have multiple dispel scrolls on their tzeentch heralds, so just force your way through them the Druchii way.
Why don't they have access to the new list of scrolls?

Oh and by the way, I just did a practice roll for spells and did not get PS but did get the PoS.
I'll playtest that out a little here today working with out it.
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Post by Dalamar »

Demons can't use magic items, they have their own list of demonic gifts, but they can't use any item you find in the main rulebook.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Post by Nellamik »

Dalamar said;
Stand back and shoot the hell out of him. Your range is bigger or equal in all respects. Flamers can now march and shoot so you might want to deal with them as soon as you can (chariots would be nice, I'm guessing you don't own any though)


I just bought a DE Cold one chariot on E-bay (without the old Cold ones)
I plan on buying the CoK's to convert this OOP chariot. Man these are not cheap but with the new Cold ones they look great. I was thinking of adding this anyway's cause I love chariots, but the DE's chariot is really rare now. One down one to go.
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Post by Nellamik »

I just got my second charriot on e-bay.
I haven't recieved them yet as the 1st one is coming from the UK and the 2nd one I just won yesterday. As I said when I do get them I plan to convert the old cold ones with the new models so I am buying a second box set of CoK's that will yield me 1 additional knight as well. This is an expensive project but I think it will turn out great in the end and I have time before I get a chance to play again (Working around the house with summer repairs)

So now I can implement these 2 into the list as Dalamar suggested.

Supreme Sorceress Sacrificial Dagger Pendant of Khaeleth
Ruby Ring of Ruin, Lore of Death
L2 Sorceress Dark steed Darkstar Cloak and a dispel scroll. Lore of Fire
L2 Sorceress Dark Steed Seal of Ghrond & Tome of Furion, Lore of Shadow
L2 Sorceress with Feedback Scroll

Assasin Manbane Ruin of Khaine
30 Warriors spears Light armour shields FC
10 Xbows light armour Mus & Standard
10 xbows light armour Standard
5 x Dark riders xbows & mus
5 x Dark riders xbows & mus
5 x Dark riders xbows & mus
5 x Harpies
5 x Harpies

5 x Shades
5 x Shades
6 x CoK FC Standard of slaughter
15 x Black guard FC Standard of Hag Graef
2 x Cold one chariots

2 Reaper bolt throwers

(Removed the Hydra and the war banner to put in the CoC's. But I could remove the Ruby ring of ruin instad of the War banner)
2998 points all % criteria met
Gives me Fortitude of 7 and 45 xbows total
No amount of planning can ever replace dumb luck.
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